Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Matt Walsh 'What is a Women?' trailer released

137 replies

MalagaNights · 14/05/2022 16:16

Matt Walsh, the right wing Catholic who is against abortion and yoga (I'm just getting in all the reasons to not 'align' with him in advance, if that's your thing) has released the trailer for his documentary.

It looks hilarious and amazing;

twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1525477731181502464?t=zwaCB9yE6f6R48Q46arIeA&s=19

OP posts:
SeldomHere · 15/05/2022 17:04

AlisonDonut · 15/05/2022 16:39

A common link usually also involves feminine names (like "Sarah"), labels (like "actress"), and pronouns (like "she"), but the more we get to specifics, the less universal these things they are.

So following your line of thinking - in the UK and France I am a woman, but as I have a name that is known as male in Spain, when I go there [which as it happens I can drive there in a couple of hours, as I live in the South of France] I become a man?

And thus will start to produce sperm? Or a moustache? Or what, what happens once I'm over the border?

You're conflating sex and gender. Who said anything about sperm.

You remain a womsn, because you continue to identify that way.

And yeah, names being differently gendered in different countries just further shows how much of it is merely a social construct.

Moppincraxy · 15/05/2022 17:06

"Shared gender identity of "woman".

That's it.

A common link usually also involves feminine names (like "Sarah"), labels (like "actress"), and pronouns (like "she"), but the more we get to specifics, the less universal these things they are."

My name means "dove". I have two eyes, two legs, can tweet, sing and hop. I have been referred to as a "bird". I have been chased and bitten by a cat. I have quite a few common links with birds. Am I a bird?

AlisonDonut · 15/05/2022 17:10

You're conflating sex and gender. Who said anything about sperm.

Was it not someone up thread that said 'sex can be altered'...hang on...oh yeah that was you.

So are you talking about sex, or gender?

Are you talking about sex being altered or someone changing into some casual or less casual clothing?

As i said, you've been duped.

MagnoliaTaint · 15/05/2022 17:11

Shared gender identity of "woman".

That's it.

But ... that doesn't even mean anything. It's like I say 'everyone has a feeling about how tall they are, called an 'inner highness' and I'm a dwarf because even though I'm 6'2" I feel really quite short'.

A common link usually also involves feminine names (like "Sarah"), labels (like "actress"), and pronouns (like "she"), but the more we get to specifics, the less universal these things they are.

Well, cripes. Have you any idea how offensive that is? 'actress' has been rejected by women actors for the past ten, fifteen odd years because women are treated as lesser beings because of their sexed labels. Now people are trying to claim some kind of integral part of being a woman is using demeaning and outdated and sexist terms?

Because there's more than one way to be a woman, and women, both cis and trans, are all different.

No shit! We're all completely different people, and males are not females, and never will be. On that point we can agree. But please don't 'cis' me, thank you.

IcakethereforeIam · 15/05/2022 17:19

@Moppincraxy have you ever got into hot water or a lather. Sit down, you might be a bar of soap!

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/05/2022 17:58

No universal shared characteristics, because there are many different kinds of women, and there are many different ways to be a woman.

right you are @SeldomHere

what's your word for the type of people born with the type of body that if healthy, working correctly and in the right age group can gestate live young?

do you accept that having that kind of body gives those people unique needs?

do you think they should have a word for themselves so they can organise to ensure those needs are met?

SeldomHere · 15/05/2022 18:41

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg
> if healthy, working correctly and in the right age group

That's quite a lot of exceptions there. What stops one from also throwing in "wasn't assigned a different gender at birth"?

> do you accept that having that kind of body gives those people unique needs?

Are these needs universally shared by all non-trans women? If not, I see no reason to exclude trans women from the definition.

> do you think they should have a word for themselves so they can organise to ensure those needs are met?

Plenty non-trans women don't have those needs, but the word "woman" still includes them, so why shouldn't it also include trans women?

WarriorNewAgain · 15/05/2022 18:46

Marci bowers keeps saying it's a tiny bit social contagion.

Every person who has desisted or detransitioned and written about it names the internet as being the primary driver.... Hmm

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/05/2022 18:46

That's quite a lot of exceptions there. What stops one from also throwing in "wasn't assigned a different gender at birth"?

bloody loads

a 13 year old comes to you and says they've just started bleeding from their genitals

do you hand them a sanitary towel or take them to hospital?

congratulations, you've just identified whether or not they have that kind of body, without having to worry about any of those exceptions

how the heck do you think babies are made @SeldomHere ?

Are these needs universally shared by all non-trans women? If not, I see no reason to exclude trans women from the definition.

what, understanding that you'll menstruate for 35 years? yeah, I'd say that need is shared by all women and zero men

Plenty non-trans women don't have those needs, but the word "woman" still includes them, so why shouldn't it also include trans women?

plenty of women don't need to understand menstruation? you are coming from a very, very odd position

RoyalCorgi · 15/05/2022 18:47

That's quite a lot of exceptions there. What stops one from also throwing in "wasn't assigned a different gender at birth"?

Because people aren't assigned a gender at birth. You know that perfectly well. I refuse to believe that there is a single person on this planet who doesn't know that. Sex is observed at birth, and indeed sometimes before birth.

If you're going to quibble about definitions, then try this one: women belong to the class of humans who produce eggs. Men belong to the class of humans who produce sperm.

Humans can't change sex.

Men can't give birth.

Repeat ad nauseam.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 15/05/2022 18:55

So there are really two groups of people opposing gender ideology

I think more accurately it’s one group, albeit with a variety of underlying motivations, that believes in genderism. And everyone else in the world who doesn’t. I’m not “aligned” with anyone else on the basis of a religion we both don’t believe.

whiskyjarsafilling · 15/05/2022 18:57

Moppincraxy · 15/05/2022 17:06

"Shared gender identity of "woman".

That's it.

A common link usually also involves feminine names (like "Sarah"), labels (like "actress"), and pronouns (like "she"), but the more we get to specifics, the less universal these things they are."

My name means "dove". I have two eyes, two legs, can tweet, sing and hop. I have been referred to as a "bird". I have been chased and bitten by a cat. I have quite a few common links with birds. Am I a bird?

Doesn't your last bit about birds rather demonstrate the point that to be a bird one has to have the biology of a bird. It the biology that makes the bird, not people performing aspects associated with birdness? Or even an inner sense the bird has that it is a bird. If it had scales and four legs, would it be a bird?

Similarly one can choose to adopt characteristics society may associate with ' 'womaness' but that does not make one a woman. The only thing that makes one a woman is female biology.

Gender identity is something that was invented to get around the inconvenient fact that woman means, and has meant in probably all languages, in all human history, adult human female. This means that people who are male, did not fit into this category. Therefore, to allow them entry to 'womaness' the definition of women needed to be changed. And hence the unevidenced, unscientific, undefined notion of ' gender identity' was born. Gender identity was not discovered, it was created to solve an ideological incoherence.

Gender identity doesn't mean anything, of course. And, importantly, it doesn't explain why women have been so disadvantaged and discriminated against throughout history, in the way that the definition of woman based in our female bodies does. That is because of our reproductive function, the fact that straight men want to have sex with women, the fact our bodies are smaller and weaker than men's so men are able to abuse and attack us. So removing the reality of our sexed bodies from the word woman, no longer gives us the means to understand the foundation of the oppression and harm that has been done and is being done to us- and without a proper fact based analysis of our oppression, and without a word to describe ourselves that reflects the bodies that our oppression is rooted in, we are handicapped in being able to name, describe and fight our oppression.

But don't let that bother you.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 15/05/2022 19:02

Plenty non-trans women don't have those needs, but the word "woman" still includes them, so why shouldn't it also include trans women?

because one need women very frequently have is a need to not be around men and redefining the category to include men makes it impossible to even articulate this need, let alone meet it. But you knew that; it’s the entire point of all the nonsense word games.

whiskyjarsafilling · 15/05/2022 19:09

No universal shared characteristics, because there are many different kinds of women, and there are many different ways to be a woman

I don't think you really understand what humans are or what evolution is. Humans are animals and like all species we have evolved to reproduce. This is done through males and females of the species mating and producing young. This is why we have evolved to recognise, on sight, males and females of our own species. There are many species where I as a human am unable to tell male from female, because there is no evolutionary benefit to me in doing so. I can to do this with humans. All humans can do this as this ability is rather crucial to successful reproduction.

You can flounder around as much as you like trying to pretend we can't tell a woman from a man, but we all know through our lived experience that we can, and with just a little thought and insight as to what it is to be human, we all know why we can tell who is a woman and who is a man.

AlisonDonut · 15/05/2022 19:15

That's quite a lot of exceptions there. What stops one from also throwing in "wasn't assigned a different gender at birth

It is absolutely vile to use the medical condition of a tiny number of people, all of whom are still either one sex or another, to pretend that a middle aged white man is the most oppressed human on the planet.

Vile.

Everyone knows what a woman is. Especially men whatever they say they are.

whiskyjarsafilling · 15/05/2022 19:30

If anything, transgender identity is being gender diverse, and the "gender critical" as well as conservative movement is hostile to gender diversity of that sort

If you are going to disagree with people, you do need to put the hard work into understanding their point of view first. Otherwise you don't know if you disagree with them or not. As your point above illustrates well.

The GC movement is based on the foundational idea that the full experience of being human is open to all people, regardless of sex. You can be a man however you want to be. You can be a woman however you want to be. You do not need to be restricted to stereotypes based on your sex. Rejecting stereotypes based on your sex does not make you any less of a woman or man.

So by rejecting gender we open up full diversity to all without needing to relabel people.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 15/05/2022 19:38

There are indeed many different ways to be a woman as women only share one characteristic - being an adult human female

whiskyjarsafilling · 15/05/2022 19:51

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 15/05/2022 19:38

There are indeed many different ways to be a woman as women only share one characteristic - being an adult human female

Quite.

334bu · 15/05/2022 19:52

No universal shared characteristics, because there are many different kinds of women, and there are many different ways to be a woman

And not a single characteristic shared with transwomen because they are all male.

AlisonDonut · 15/05/2022 20:08

If you are going to disagree with people, you do need to put the hard work into understanding their point of view first.

They don't even understand their own point of view let alone anyone else's.

Moppincraxy · 15/05/2022 21:07

It's such weird cognitive dissonance isn't it? They must know deep down that what they're saying is not true but they cannot allow themselves to acknowledge that. I wonder if that's where the true vulnerability of transpeople lies, they are trying to live in a way that convinces themselves that they are something that they know they are not. That's why they don't want to talk about it. It's deeply painful to acknowledge that cognitive dissonance so they distract themselves by doubling down, group think and shouting bigot.

NotBadConsidering · 15/05/2022 21:14

WarriorNewAgain · 15/05/2022 18:46

Marci bowers keeps saying it's a tiny bit social contagion.

Every person who has desisted or detransitioned and written about it names the internet as being the primary driver.... Hmm

I respect Bowers for coming around and pointing out that none of the patients for surgery who have been on puberty blockers have any sexual function, and it’s good Bowers is mentioning social contagion. But what is Bowers doing about it, apart from appearing in this? Bowers is the President-Elect of WPATH. Is Bowers going to use that position to challenge the orthodoxy from within? Bowers could place a personal moratorium, saying no surgery on anyone who hasn’t been through puberty.

IcakethereforeIam · 15/05/2022 21:18

And projection.

SeldomHere · 16/05/2022 01:15

whiskyjarsafilling · 15/05/2022 19:30

If anything, transgender identity is being gender diverse, and the "gender critical" as well as conservative movement is hostile to gender diversity of that sort

If you are going to disagree with people, you do need to put the hard work into understanding their point of view first. Otherwise you don't know if you disagree with them or not. As your point above illustrates well.

The GC movement is based on the foundational idea that the full experience of being human is open to all people, regardless of sex. You can be a man however you want to be. You can be a woman however you want to be. You do not need to be restricted to stereotypes based on your sex. Rejecting stereotypes based on your sex does not make you any less of a woman or man.

So by rejecting gender we open up full diversity to all without needing to relabel people.

Right, which is why you totally don't have a "actually males crossdressing in public is bad too" thread every other week.

Oh wait, you do.

Any feminine "male" is accused of being a "paraphilic AGP fetishist" by default.

I do understand your beliefs, and I also understand that a lot of things you claim about them are lies.

SeldomHere · 16/05/2022 01:18

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 15/05/2022 19:02

Plenty non-trans women don't have those needs, but the word "woman" still includes them, so why shouldn't it also include trans women?

because one need women very frequently have is a need to not be around men and redefining the category to include men makes it impossible to even articulate this need, let alone meet it. But you knew that; it’s the entire point of all the nonsense word games.

Why would not being around any trans women be a "need"?