Where are women allowed to discuss issues pertaining to identity and representation?

[Robinni]

I am not posting to be controversial.

And PLEASE do not be controversial yourself if responding. It will get the whole thread deleted.

I have responded to two threads now on MN which have had trans in the title, the most recent one has been deleted and I believe others have been as well, due to people being abusive and the like from both sides.

I am interested in feminism, women’s rights, allyship to trans women and how this works while protecting women’s rights, female identity, equality and so forth.

Where exactly are women able to discuss issues relative to their place in society if they are shut down even on a website that is specifically for women and mothers.

Do women have a place anymore? Where is it?

Nowhere, we are being erased. I'm really not sure where we go from here.

I'm fed up of being shouted down, so I don't bother anymore. Selfishly I have one son so don't have to worry about this for my immediate future generations, my only hope is he goes on to have sons. Sad but true.

I don't know, I think it's such a heated issue now and everything in society seems to have become polarised. People can't have respectful discussions where they learn from other people's viewpoints anymore, on many issues.
I am a lesbian and had an initial feeling about some of these issues but have changed my views. I won't say much though because I'll be jumped on, especially on boards here, and I can't be bothered to have to deal with conflict in my leisure time.

Maybe facts and figures can be quoted to show the actual facts rather than emotional / fear responses, but otherwise people believe what they believe and will seek out opinions and articles that back up what they think so it's just an echo chamber.

I do have discussions with very close friends.

There was a program on Channel 4 the other night that interviewed several women on their experiences and views and touched on some of these issues. "Where have all the lesbians gone'".

Feel quite frustrated with it, I genuinely didn’t even know I was still allowed to say “woman” in a discussion earlier, thought I had to say cis woman to be politically correct.

My DS went through a phase of wanting to be a girl and having issue with parts of his bits and pieces. My immediate thought was thank god he is not in school yet so he can’t be brain washed into getting rid of it all 🙄.

All I see everywhere is language being changed and things changing to be more inclusive, but I don’t see anyone sticking up for female rights. Or have any clue how we would go about putting forward views, in terms of what is happening for ourselves, or concerns about what our children are liable to be exposed too (i.e. influenced to not love themselves as they are, or put in danger with male access to changing rooms).

I am not radical or against anyone due to their identity. Everyone should be entitled to express themselves as they see fit. Just wondering how women are to retain their identity, feel safe and support their children? And I don’t want to be referred to as a “person” who breastfeeds/gives birth/menstruates… I am a woman.

So where do women meet to discuss issues and do something about it? Organisations?

@AMBE123 thank you for this and I will watch that program.

I think the important thing is dialogue and respect. I really am not against anyone.

I had an awful experience in my local leisure centre due to them making changing rooms unisex and I only wanted to go for a swim!

Equally my DS is ASD, very easily influenced and would be vulnerable (not recognising danger) so I worry about what the world will be like for him growing up. Friends in the states have kids who want to be called “it”, feels like it has gone too far.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of threads on these very topics on the MN feminism forums, so I'm not sure why the handwringing about "where shall we ever go" and "we're being erased" is necessary.

The two threads you refer to were deleted because they descended into personal attacks and targeting a specific individual.

There is plenty of good, intelligent, and constructive debate to be had on these forums, although having been around here since all this were fields and as someone who owes her GC status to MN, it admittedly does seem to be declining in quality and critical thinking.

If you want to just have a go at someone though, then you'll need to go elsewhere.

@Lockheart not hand wringing. I just didn’t see anything too wrong with the last thread - though perhaps the posts deleted weren’t visible to me.

First foray into talking about this and happened to be two trending threads I clicked on. Perhaps best to avoid these and as you say stick to the feminism forum.

It does seem to be that people are into denying people their identity. “There can be women and nothing else” sort of a vibe. And a lot of aggression and mud slinging.

It just would be nice to have some intelligent conversation about it. Understand the dos and do nots when it comes to trans sensibilities as everything seems a trigger point.

It has got to the point where I would like to physically meet other women to discuss concerns. So if there are any go to organisations where people can speak freely that would be great. Thanks

If you want "real life" organisations to follow, have a look at Fair Play For Women and A Woman's Place.

Threads on these topics are either brilliant or appalling in my experience. On one hand you have people calmy discussing the issues and drawing up fantastic arguments, campaigning within and without political parties, and supporting women to challenge policies in work and school environments.

On the other you have as you say, the mudslinging, and posts which become shockingly misogynistic (there was an awful thread about Emma Watson not too long ago) or bordering on truly transphobic (people will say to report transphobia when you see it, which I do, but many posters know how to skirt right up to the boundary and push it all they can - the online equivalent of waving your hand in someone's face and saying "but I'm not touching you, ner ner, nothing you can do" - and although I am GC I don't think hatred or true transphobia is acceptable).

Oh that’s really sad, love Hermione… I take it Emma didn’t support JK?

I’m really showing my newbie colours now, what does GC stand for (gender certain?!)

Transphobia shouldn’t be allowed, everyone is entitled to work towards who they want to be to realise who they are… I think what I find difficult to grapple with is this aggressive insistence that they are actual women and that they are entitled into this space and that space. But there appears to be no respect for what that would mean for people with vaginas and their offspring. As I said I’ve already encountered an aggressive male in changing room and my DS and I use disabled loos now.

There doesn’t seem to be the same fuss over transmen and I wonder how they feel about using male spaces, is this something they want, do they feel threatened by men too?

I wonder what can be done about it. Women shouldn’t be left feeling so vulnerable to accommodate the demands of such a small number of people.

Thanks for telling me about those organisations.

what does GC stand for

Gender Critical - the belief that biological sex is immutable.

people with vaginas

Women!

Do you see what I mean it’s very confusing and I find I’m picking up a lot of the lingo… and I would be quite GC too, I don’t believe it’s possible to change sex as much as you want to feed yourself hormones or have surgeries. It won’t change your biology.

Sorry I was including transmen and women in the people with vaginas comment! Better to say women and transmen I guess!!

Hard to get it right…

Gender Critical - the belief that biological sex is immutable.

Well, in fairness, most people know sex can't be changed. Gender critical feminism is specifically the belief that Gender (sex stereotypes) is harmful.

@Robinni you want the main feminism board:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights

This board (called feminism chat) was set up specifically at the request of male-centric feminists and, as such, only allows feminist topics which don't touch on sex or gender.

Better to say women and transmen I guess

Or just say women. You don't need to obfuscate your language on here (well the other board).

I worked with a transman mid transition. They hated that people still called them a women, misgendered them, gave them abuse, they were extremely mentally distressed. Admittedly I found most conversations a minefield as they were constantly beleaguered by trans issues and just immersed in it all, like there was no other topic of conversation to be had, everything led back to it.

Another transman I knew post transition, happiest person in the world, completely themselves and total bloke in mannerisms, behaviours, attitude. Never talked about it, just normal conversation. But then they were constantly referred to as the gender they wished to be, male, nobody ever thought any different.

It’s for people like the first person that I try to have compassion and consideration. They really hated being a woman and felt they were a man, the term was hugely offensive to them.

However, if there are (according to gov websites) only 200 - 500,000 trans people in the U.K. and 34,000,000 women. Then I worry that the rights of the majority are being eroded to suit the minority. And that it’s become almost trendy now for pre-teens and teens.

@donquixotedelamancha
Thanks for this… I feel like the current atmosphere is going to bring a lot more women towards feminism. I’ve always been for women’s rights, without actively participating in feminist circles. However, after being verbally abused twice now by a man (not trans) in a changing room, and feeling like I have to use a disabled loo, sort of had enough really.

I worked with a transman mid transition. They hated that people still called them a women, misgendered them, gave them abuse, they were extremely mentally distressed. Admittedly I found most conversations a minefield

Sure and on MN you will get short shrift if you misgender individuals or abuse groups but you can use clear language when discussing issues/general cases/ public policy.

Try to, can be hard though - myself and several people found it very hard to adjust to using “they” as we’d been using he/she all our lives…. Now I find it trips me up when I’m writing and get grammar wrong.

I think there’s a point if you purposefully get someone’s pronouns wrong to hurt them. With regard to the individual I mentioned, a lot of people weren’t aware or saw them so infrequently that they forgot about the trans issues - they looked female but butch, so a lot of people said she/her… it wasn’t meant in an offensive manner.

Will check out the other board, cheers

Do check it out. You'll find many if us started where you are now

I was medical support for a transman through all of his surgeries, over 30+ years. He is he as far as I am concerned, but we both know he is female. That bit if cognitive dissonance will always remain.

I also have a transwoman friend, since we were teens, who had facial feminisation surgery, chest implants. She is she, but we both know she is male. Again, that cognitive dissonance stays with you.

To some all of that means that both of my thise trans individuals are transphobic. To them in it just means that they live how they live and their sex has not changed.

It is possible to be gender critical, in it's real sense, and to support trans people in their fight for a less discriminatory life.

Welcome OP, I was where you are a few months ago, wondering what all the fuss was about - live and let live and all that. Until I realised what Self ID actually means in real terms for women and girls.

Like most others on the Feminist boards, I don't hate trans people, and have sympathy for someone dealing with such distress. I had bulimia as a teenager and hated my body, I honestly don't know how I would have coped as a teenager today with instagram and social media. It took years to accept myself and not have those destructive thoughts.

I think you'll find most GC women didn't have a problem with anything trans until the definition of 'trans' started to change a few years ago. That coupled with a push to change the law and the change in policies which seriously undermines safeguarding principles is the real issue here. Be nice, be kind was pushed on us before we fully realised what that meant. So the real issue is Self ID as law. It is basically legal fiction which is unworkable.

Where I live it is already in place (brought in without public consultation), it means that any man can fill out a form and legally be declared a woman for all purposes. There seems to be no consideration for how this affects single sex spaces and provisions for women and girls.
We already have male rapists in women's prisons, and the media reporting male criminals as female. Women were not consulted on this and those in charge don't seem to care about the affect this has on women. We are not important.

It's basically a complete shitshow.

This is a helpful thread, thank you to those who have posted. I don't quite understand the furore myself, and whilst I see a lot in the media about women's spaces being invaded, I have not personally experienced issues so it seems to me that it's whipped up in the media....but it may also just be that I live in the sticks and don't get out much!

Nor do I feel threatened by men, I just never have done but maybe that's just me. It feels weird to stand in line with men for a cubicle in gender neutral toilets at a petrol station (the one time I did encounter it) but it was just odd, not threatening. Clearly for some women it has been a different experience which is horrendous. Maybe I have been very lucky.

It must also be horrible to be male, innocent but automatically be seen as some kind of a menace.

I do see that in some lesbian circles, some women want to exclude trans women from social events, to which I say 'Live and let live, they've been through enough'.

There are resister groups around the country; feminist groups where we can talk freely,but obviously have to be kept secret as some people risk their jobs for speaking about this. Other than that the orgs mentioned and also FILIA.

There are other online spaces too but I personally find mn easier to access. Many posters have flown the nest though to sites where speech isn't policed as much.

I personally don't label myself as GC as the labels are half the issue; I'm working to make sure safeguarding within schools and around children is sorted out with this, Facts and science are kept central to everything and also political decisions. All women and girls are able to maintain their rights to single sex spaces.

I'm a feminist in that I don't believe feminism can be an effective liberation movement is it is any way includes or prioritises males. Feminism has always been critical of gender stereotyping, for both sexes as it holds us back. It's been shown to hinder STEM for girls for example.

None of this is being "cruel to trans people," it's about honesty and boundaries.

If we are thinking about the "rights of trans people," there really does need to be need to be better health information as it's looking like the medical implications for them are enormous and they've been sold snake oil. Children certainly cannot consent to loosing aspect of their Healthy body that they can't even imagine yet.

Unfortunately the reality of this is that besides the confused young people there are those for whom this is driven by porn.

I'm dancing around language in order not to be deleted. Some cannot stand this; I can simply because mn is how I learnt about all this

Yes exactly, on one side of the coin is vulnerable teenagers scrambling for hormones and surgery, and the other side is middle aged men who apparently don't need any surgery, just a declaration thank you very much, and is clearly driven by the thing that should not be mentioned on MN.

Which is so frustrating as it's so bloody obvious that it is a motivation for some of the behaviours and push to occupy women's spaces. Also the reason that a third space will never be acceptable, as it doesn't provide the right validation.

And they well know that if the general public were made aware of this, that they would be rightly horrified. So it must be presented as something else.

Yes - the problem is when you learn of all the ins and outs you need to start to analyse exactly who are we trying to not be nasty about or infringe on their own rights?

Who is transgender/ transexual? What does that actually mean and why?

What 'rights' are we talking about? We all have a particularly good level of human rights in this country.

It is not being 'nasty' to carefully define people in order to correctly apply rights. Children have specific rights and needs that are different to adults.