Where are women allowed to discuss issues pertaining to identity and representation?

[Robinni]

I am not posting to be controversial.

And PLEASE do not be controversial yourself if responding. It will get the whole thread deleted.

I have responded to two threads now on MN which have had trans in the title, the most recent one has been deleted and I believe others have been as well, due to people being abusive and the like from both sides.

I am interested in feminism, women’s rights, allyship to trans women and how this works while protecting women’s rights, female identity, equality and so forth.

Where exactly are women able to discuss issues relative to their place in society if they are shut down even on a website that is specifically for women and mothers.

Do women have a place anymore? Where is it?

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark
Completely understand your frustrations, it does feel like there is a one way Street to all this inclusivity disregarding why separation was important in the first place.

I do however think that @AMBE123 has a point and I’ll tell you why - this situation is equally as crap for men as it is for women. Men do not want to feel uneasy and demonised. They want the separate changing rooms and loos as much for the simple reason that it protects them too, not from attack but from accusation. As much as we like to paint the picture of women always being the victim, this situation also promotes victimisation of men.

@AMBE123 Being lesbian you probably haven’t had experience of relationships/sexual encounters with men or being pursued by them to the same extent - maybe why you feel more comfortable than straight women? A man at the corner shop is a different kettle of fish to the man who’s trying to get into your pants.

I also agree that trans people are put through enough - people going to a trans clinic used to be on the same bus route as me, they were lovely people. But the look of exhaustion on their faces and humiliation as they trudged week after week to have their head examined in order that they could live freely… and abuse they faced too was horrid.

So I can see it from both sides.

In the solutions proposed so far (shared and inclusive everything) nobody wins - Trans will not be fully accepted on this basis and may face even more negativity than they currently do.
Women lose dignity/rights/opportunities (sports/professionally - think a transwoman no kids fulfilling the “women’s” quota).
Men are just depicted as complete sex fiends who can’t be trusted and are placed in the vulnerable position where they could be accused of xyz as there’s a woman in her knickers in the cubicle next door.
Kids being placed in all kinds of vulnerable situations and given the power to make decisions they are too young to comprehend the full ramifications of.

What we need is calm discussion, risk assessment and coordinated collective cooperation. Everything is so heightened with emotion and anger - both sides - it’s hard to see a way forward that’s workable.

Robinni I agree with everything you have said and yes I was simply trying to say - looking at both sides - that it can't be great for normal decent men either.

There are no winners.

Calm and reasoned debate is needed but seems hard to come by.

I am fairly sure that at least two posters think or alluded that if I have any sympathy for men I may be a male imposter on the board - really not the case!

I have had relationships / marriage with men as I came out later in adulthood, but there may be quite a few reasons why my experience has been so different, including having lived abroad for a long time. Also although I look very feminine, my interests and ways of thinking have always been more tomboyish and practical so I've been generally been comfortable around men. Either that or I've been in complete denial as to their intentions.

It is only from reading MN this week that I learn that for some or many women the norm is to feel harassed and threatened by men, and this is truly awful.

@AMBE123

It’s a very emotive issue, and I really do empathise with the trans rights movement and am all for self expression.

But removing protections - for men, women and children it isn’t logical. You cannot address inequality for max 500K people. With inequality for 66.5M.

I would argue that for sport it is less well cut and fighting this could bring more division within sport. Simply for the reason that people of different racial groups have different biology - density of lean muscle mass is greater in black people, west Africans have more fast twitch muscle fibres conferring advantage too, but then whites tend to have a higher VO2 max…. Then there are the lovely Andean and Tibetan people with functional adaptation of their capillaries to cope at high altitude, which may confer advantage with endurance sport in future (discussed here www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/z0h9x/tibetan_athletes_dominance_of_endurance_events_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf )
So by pushing transwomen out of women’s sport there could be a messy, and more detrimental, argument about other biological differences brought about. As much as I find it absurd to watch a 6ft2 biological man glide to the finish in a women’s race, there is a bigger danger more disruptive to societal cohesion afoot.

I hope you didn’t find my question re. relationship history intrusive, I had just wondered if lesbianism had some protective advantage (ie if always lesbian and veering away from men/straight bars etc), obviously that hasn’t been your experience though.

I saw on the news today that they are having a problem with the homes for Ukraine scheme - predatory men have been signing up to get vulnerable Ukrainian female refugees into their homes. The majority of men are good, but I think this happening shows that those who do wish harm on women will exploit any given opportunity.

Homes for Ukraine: Housing scheme called danger to refugees www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61311046