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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where are women allowed to discuss issues pertaining to identity and representation?

54 replies

Robinni · 01/05/2022 22:12

I am not posting to be controversial.

And PLEASE do not be controversial yourself if responding. It will get the whole thread deleted.

I have responded to two threads now on MN which have had trans in the title, the most recent one has been deleted and I believe others have been as well, due to people being abusive and the like from both sides.

I am interested in feminism, women’s rights, allyship to trans women and how this works while protecting women’s rights, female identity, equality and so forth.

Where exactly are women able to discuss issues relative to their place in society if they are shut down even on a website that is specifically for women and mothers.

Do women have a place anymore? Where is it?

OP posts:
LeniGray · 02/05/2022 21:09

AMBE123 · 02/05/2022 20:17

This is a helpful thread, thank you to those who have posted. I don't quite understand the furore myself, and whilst I see a lot in the media about women's spaces being invaded, I have not personally experienced issues so it seems to me that it's whipped up in the media....but it may also just be that I live in the sticks and don't get out much!

Nor do I feel threatened by men, I just never have done but maybe that's just me. It feels weird to stand in line with men for a cubicle in gender neutral toilets at a petrol station (the one time I did encounter it) but it was just odd, not threatening. Clearly for some women it has been a different experience which is horrendous. Maybe I have been very lucky.

It must also be horrible to be male, innocent but automatically be seen as some kind of a menace.

I do see that in some lesbian circles, some women want to exclude trans women from social events, to which I say 'Live and let live, they've been through enough'.

It’s frustrating, being a lesbian, when you want to meet like-minded women. It’s not that lesbians wanted to exclude trans women from socialising, it’s that they’re sick of pressure to date them. To be accused of transphobia because you’re same-sex attracted, and you’re not attracted to biological males, regardless of how they present. Sexual preferences are exclusionary for some unfortunately, and lesbians are getting a backlash for theirs.

LeniGray · 02/05/2022 21:09

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Whatsnewpussyhat · 02/05/2022 21:38

It must also be horrible to be male, innocent but automatically be seen as some kind of a menace

Oh yeah, the poor men getting hurt feelings. Never mind all the women and girls who are having their single sex spaces and protections removed so that the men who ARE a threat can have any and all access.
I trust no man that demands access to spaces where women and children are at their most vulnerable, or anyone that wants to remove the legal exemptions that allow for single sex spaces for their own selfish ends.

I do see that in some lesbian circles, some women want to exclude trans women from social events

Yes because lesbians want to have some events only for same sex attracted females. Why can't they have male free events? They aren't support humans for men or there to provide validation for a 'gender identity'

'Live and let live, they've been through enough'

You do realise how many men are now claiming to be 'trans' and not changing a thing about themselves? No dysphoria. No drugs. No surgery. They are not transexuals. Many males whose motives we mustn't mention.

Many many women have been through enough. They want the male free spaces they are legally allowed.

MarshaBradyo · 02/05/2022 21:42

Here is good tg as there aren’t many places online

I didn’t see the deleted threads but the one I posted on earlier is still there

Robinni · 02/05/2022 22:54

Reading everyone’s posts with interest.

For me there are two major concerns

Firstly, safety and dignity.
Out of my entire friendship group pretty much all of us have suffered some sort of assault by men - groping, leering, catcalling, sexual assault, rape, domestic violence, verbal abuse etc. Many of us over our lives may have had repeated experiences or a combination of the above.

This is not due to all men, but some particularly badly behaved men.

It is not the good and decent men who are going to exploit the trans loophole to their benefit, but the perverts/rapists/domestic abusers/general shitheads. This is like a free pass to them; as one man said to me in a changing room “we’re allowed in everywhere now love” while chuckling with a big grin.

I have nothing against transmen or transwomen; if they have undergone the process of seeking help * and truly cannot find a way to be happy and fulfilled without changing their gender then they need to be supported to live their lives and not be discriminated against.

However, when I am in a toilet or in a changing room taking my pants down, I want to feel safe and at ease. I don’t think that is unreasonable. Nor is wanting my DC to be likewise safe and at ease, which brings me to…

Protection for children
I have seen middle aged men dressed as women in town centres from I was a little girl, though I didn’t have a name for them then or understanding, it was and remains to be very normal - though there are a few more than there used to be.

The main difference I see now is the Trans youth movement and particularly boys who appear to be actively going through their transition extremely young; mid-late teens/early 20s (admittedly the boys are more noticeable than the girls). This question of identity/gender is becoming as casual a discussion as whether or not they are taking a gap year or attending a concert. Those who are opting to change are given greater attention, greeted with solemn head nods and told how they are brave and everyone is their ally in this process…. What they don’t realise is they won’t have a clue who they are until they are probably mid twenties and some of the treatments they agree to may have lifelong consequences.

How many of us had a goth phase or a punk phase or a slapper phase or whatever - when you’re a teenager forays into different identities are part of growing up, it’s what makes the first freedom of youth so intoxicating - you can be anyone!

Hair dye, make up and clothes are all removable at a later point. Phenotypic change induced by hormones and surgery is irreversible. Yes there are teens/youth who genuinely do need support and are trans. But everything has become so faddy now; what are your pronouns/what is your lived experience/what gender are you today? It’s all so damn American…

It is not healthy that there are entire groups of teenage girls (as young as 13/14) identifying as they/it; these are the women of tomorrow they should be learning how to embrace themselves, not reject themselves because being woman alone is not good enough. I’d imagine it’s all equally as confusing for the boys.

So I worry about my DS and the increasingly complicated social dynamics and choices he’ll be faced with. Growing up is tough enough.

  • I realise some will take issue with me saying “undergone the process” - there appears to be a push at the moment for the assertion of a new gender being automatically accepted without medical support. Personally, I feel it’s important that people are given the opportunity to reflect on their feelings and are supported to try and love themselves as they are first - whether they go on to transition or not. So many people who either are trans or think they are trans, have been through negative experiences. And it’s important to resolve this. And to ensure the feelings experienced are not due to some other form of self loathing that could be resolved… Phew!
OP posts:
Robinni · 02/05/2022 23:02

Thank you all for being so supportive of a new poster here, somewhere to discuss without talk becoming venomous.

As for lesbians wanting to have relationships and sex with other lesbians, I think that’s a given really isn’t it!

Men, with money, are now in the position to augment their appearance to such an extent that they are indistinguishable from women.

It’s a bit cruel to attend a gathering pretending to be something you aren’t. If women want to sleep with women or men with men that should be respected. It’s like trying to force ideology onto someone… Trans people deserve love too but it shouldn’t be under false pretences.

Sorry previous post glitched - my bold text ended up all over the place!!

OP posts:
Absurdle · 02/05/2022 23:20

I do see that in some lesbian circles, some women want to exclude trans women from social events, to which I say 'Live and let live, they've been through enough'

Can I ask what you think trans women have “been through?” I think you may be under the misapprehension that all or most transwomen have “the surgery.” In fact that’s rare. Many don’t even take hormones.

I’d also like to suggest that the “live and let live” option is for transwomen to stay out of spaces where they aren’t welcome. No one’s preventing anyone from organising trans inclusive “lesbian”’ spaces. However women only spaces for actual women are not treated with a “live and let live” respect by the trans community and it’s reached the point that they can only be organised in secret.

AMBE123 · 02/05/2022 23:26

LeniGray · 02/05/2022 21:09

It’s frustrating, being a lesbian, when you want to meet like-minded women. It’s not that lesbians wanted to exclude trans women from socialising, it’s that they’re sick of pressure to date them. To be accused of transphobia because you’re same-sex attracted, and you’re not attracted to biological males, regardless of how they present. Sexual preferences are exclusionary for some unfortunately, and lesbians are getting a backlash for theirs.

I should have mentioned I am a lesbian myself. I am aware of the issue but if there are 50 lesbians socialising in a public venue, having 1 or 2 trans women show up with their female friends doesn't change the dynamic overly. In my personal opinion.
Who people choose for a sexual relationship is an entirely different issue, people are either attracted to someone or they aren't, and nobody should get any backlash for that. Everyone is entitled to be as picky as they want to be when choosing someone to share their bed or life with.

Absurdle · 02/05/2022 23:27

as one man said to me in a changing room “we’re allowed in everywhere now love” while chuckling with a big grin.

ugh. How disgusting. I’m sorry that happened to you. It’s probably worth complaining about so that they can’t claim their policy hasn’t caused any problems. Stick around and you’ll find lots of tips on how to go about objecting to all this bullshit.

Absurdle · 02/05/2022 23:33

if there are 50 lesbians socialising in a public venue, having 1 or 2 trans women show up with their female friends doesn't change the dynamic overly

I have been to events like that maybe 10 years ago, and would pretty much agree. Though of course women are still entitled to organise single sex spaces even if the men they are excluding aren’t numerous or obnoxious. Live and let live, right?

But your numbers are a bit out of date! These days there are as many “lesbian” TW as lesbians.

AMBE123 · 02/05/2022 23:34

Absurdle · 02/05/2022 23:20

I do see that in some lesbian circles, some women want to exclude trans women from social events, to which I say 'Live and let live, they've been through enough'

Can I ask what you think trans women have “been through?” I think you may be under the misapprehension that all or most transwomen have “the surgery.” In fact that’s rare. Many don’t even take hormones.

I’d also like to suggest that the “live and let live” option is for transwomen to stay out of spaces where they aren’t welcome. No one’s preventing anyone from organising trans inclusive “lesbian”’ spaces. However women only spaces for actual women are not treated with a “live and let live” respect by the trans community and it’s reached the point that they can only be organised in secret.

The trans women I personally know have gone through years of gender dysphoria starting as young as 5 and in some cases had to spend many of their adult years asking to start reassignment.

Isn't a man who dresses as a woman but isn't going through the hormones and surgery simply a transvestite?

I fully agree of course that live and let live should work both ways.

As I say I live in the sticks and things may look very different in different places.

Absurdle · 02/05/2022 23:42

Isn't a man who dresses as a woman but isn't going through the hormones and surgery simply a transvestite?

we cross posted! I had the feeling you must not be aware of how things have developed in the past few years. These days men don’t need hormones or surgeries or even gender dysphoria to be trans. They don’t even need to shave their beard. It’s transphobic to claim otherwise. I know it sounds ridiculous but unfortunately it’s reached the point that men can just claim to be women and lesbians on the basis of their say-so, and Stonewall and the large social media platforms are on their side, and women who try to gather together in real or virtual spaces without letting these men in are aggressively targeted and deplatformed.

Helleofabore · 03/05/2022 00:00

AMBE123

May I suggest you check out the Stonewall ‘trans umbrella’? And Google Alex Drummond. Alex is a mature transitioned male who has declare themselves a lesbian and goes into schools to educate young people.

And while you might not think it is an issue, I have overheard a group of 14 year old lesbians talking where the peer pressure was immense that lesbians are transphobic if they don’t do trans dick. This is peer on peer pressure coming through from social media. There have been quite a few young lesbians abused and trolled online after they declared that they ‘don’t do dick’.

This is happening. It is not a media ‘beat up’.

Robinni · 03/05/2022 05:05

@AMBE123 What you’ve said about peer pressure against lesbians is perfectly valid. I would also say there are issues for gay men too.

I think, if this continues unabated we are going to be in the position where the rights of men who want to be women supersede those of women themselves.

It’s curious that there don’t appear to be the same issues with transmen, but then there are consistently more transwomen than transmen, there aren’t the same imbalances of physical power and I haven’t seen a lot of transmen be aggressive, domineering and threatening to others.

Re. Man in woman’s clothing - I was speaking from the point of view I had as a child - I didn’t understand what trans was but it was normal for me seeing the occasional “man in a dress” as a kid. They are slightly more common and appear more confident now, but still the same *. Young trans is the change I’ve seen - never saw teens/early 20s trans people before maybe the last 5 years… which trans groups may call progress but I find it worrying.

@Absurdle is right, men are not required to take hormones or change their physical appearance to be women, they just have to say they are - though many desire an increasingly feminine appearance so pursue medical intervention.

  • except that there are more sophisticated treatments now to help transwomen blend in. In the 80s/90s and even now for those in the beginning of transition, they would appear to others as a man in a dress.
OP posts:
Robinni · 03/05/2022 05:07

Again with the bold glitching… sorry, didn’t have anything on bold there…

OP posts:
Robinni · 03/05/2022 05:11

Last paragraph referring to the point that middle aged transmen are just the same as they were 30 yrs ago (MN cut my asterisks too! 🙈)

OP posts:
Roseglen84 · 03/05/2022 08:54

AMBE123 · 02/05/2022 20:17

This is a helpful thread, thank you to those who have posted. I don't quite understand the furore myself, and whilst I see a lot in the media about women's spaces being invaded, I have not personally experienced issues so it seems to me that it's whipped up in the media....but it may also just be that I live in the sticks and don't get out much!

Nor do I feel threatened by men, I just never have done but maybe that's just me. It feels weird to stand in line with men for a cubicle in gender neutral toilets at a petrol station (the one time I did encounter it) but it was just odd, not threatening. Clearly for some women it has been a different experience which is horrendous. Maybe I have been very lucky.

It must also be horrible to be male, innocent but automatically be seen as some kind of a menace.

I do see that in some lesbian circles, some women want to exclude trans women from social events, to which I say 'Live and let live, they've been through enough'.

Where to start with this! I also have never had a terrible experience with men, have never been raped or assaulted, but I believe women when they say it happens.

The whole tone of your post seems to be 'poor men, what about the menz feelings'?

Why cant you just believe women when we say this is a big problem?

And there is a good reason that this issue has been talked about more in the media, and it's not just being whipped up, and it's not a furore out of nothing - it is because women have realised that the boundaries have been changed in the last few years, and that has very real consequences for us and are pushing back.

The issue is Self ID law, which is being pushed in many countries. This means that any predatory man who likes, can fill out a form and declare himself legally a woman, for all purposes. If you don't think anyone would go to the trouble here's a taster for you -

There are currently male rapists in women's prisons, men who have undergone no surgery whatsoever, who have a history of violence and hatred towards women.
There are men in women's sports teams, who are winning medals and pushing women off the podium.
There are men in women's rape crisis centres, telling women who are uncomfortable with their presence that those women are bigots.
There are men on lesbian dating sites telling young lesbians that they are hateful and phobic if these women don't want to sleep with them.

They are just a few examples, have a look at the 'It'll Never Happen' threads on here, there are countless more.

All of this didn't come out of nowhere, and isn't just coincidence. This is the natural consequence of gender ideology doctrine, which is now infiltrating our medical and educational institutions, which states that anyone who 'feels' like a woman should be treated as such without question or criticism.

And before I forget there is also the thousands of young lesbians scrambling for puberty blockers and mastectomies who are being put on medication which will render them infertile, all because they believe that if they are gender non-conforming then they must really be a boy. This is again part of the new gender ideology that Stonewall et al. are pushing on children.

Live and let live doesn't work here, women who are fighting against this know and see the problems inherent with all these lies.

Fleurtjeblau · 03/05/2022 10:06

If you're referring specifically to conversations about trans people, then I'm not sure what you mean - this board is filled to the brim with them that remain standing. You need to be respectful when talking about it, as you do with many other subjects, or your post gets deleted - I don't think that's a bad thing.

If you're looking for other forums that are less heavily monitored, then there are plenty out there and plenty waiting to be created. One popular one was (I believe) created by a Mumsnetter who was sick of not being able to talk about a specific subject here and it's now a very popular forum.

Robinni · 03/05/2022 10:38

@Fleurtjeblau not specifically wanting to have conversations about trans people, although one of the things I am concerned about - it is not trans people themselves that worry me, but people likely to exploit accommodations made for trans people for negative purposes.

Admittedly, it was unfortunate the first two posts I looked at were trending and hit by a veritable lynch mob - though I didn’t see negative posts myself on the second thread, I’ll take MN word that there were sufficient to warrant it being taken down. But it did make me feel uneasy to see conversation important to women removed. I haven’t as yet had time to look more broadly at the boards.

It would be useful to have some sort of a guide to what terms and so forth that trans people are comfortable with so as not to cause offence. But beyond that it really isn’t my business how anyone lives their life. Where it concerns me is where it infringes on my ability to do very basic everyday things (use bathroom/changing room).

Regards identity and representation - I’m talking about things such as supporting mothers, rights at work, not conforming to gender norms, support with bringing up children - with straightforward ideas about identity so they feel strong within themselves and are not overwhelmed.

I’ve always been ‘for’ women. It’s just that now I am at a stage I want to meet with other women, find out more about feminism and where I can have my voice heard because I’m not comfortable about what I see women are facing at present.

So far from this thread:

Main feminism board
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights

Organisations


  • Fair Play For Women

  • A Woman’s Place

  • FiLiA

  • Secret resister groups

  • Where have all the lesbians gone?


Are there any other organisations recommended, books to read, programmes to watch, online forums that are recommended?

OP posts:
Fleurtjeblau · 03/05/2022 10:47

Regards identity and representation - I’m talking about things such as supporting mothers, rights at work, not conforming to gender norms, support with bringing up children - with straightforward ideas about identity so they feel strong within themselves and are not overwhelmed.

I’ve always been ‘for’ women. It’s just that now I am at a stage I want to meet with other women, find out more about feminism and where I can have my voice heard because I’m not comfortable about what I see women are facing at present.

I believe you can talk about all of that here :) As for meeting other women, I don't have any resources but in general, I've found that smaller websites are easier to meet people, as well as Facebook groups, etc. I'm sure someone will be along with some recommendations.

Roseglen84 · 03/05/2022 13:32

OP, you could try the website Ovarit, it's an explicitly gender critical feminist site.

AMBE123 · 03/05/2022 19:10

Roseglen84 · 03/05/2022 08:54

Where to start with this! I also have never had a terrible experience with men, have never been raped or assaulted, but I believe women when they say it happens.

The whole tone of your post seems to be 'poor men, what about the menz feelings'?

Why cant you just believe women when we say this is a big problem?

And there is a good reason that this issue has been talked about more in the media, and it's not just being whipped up, and it's not a furore out of nothing - it is because women have realised that the boundaries have been changed in the last few years, and that has very real consequences for us and are pushing back.

The issue is Self ID law, which is being pushed in many countries. This means that any predatory man who likes, can fill out a form and declare himself legally a woman, for all purposes. If you don't think anyone would go to the trouble here's a taster for you -

There are currently male rapists in women's prisons, men who have undergone no surgery whatsoever, who have a history of violence and hatred towards women.
There are men in women's sports teams, who are winning medals and pushing women off the podium.
There are men in women's rape crisis centres, telling women who are uncomfortable with their presence that those women are bigots.
There are men on lesbian dating sites telling young lesbians that they are hateful and phobic if these women don't want to sleep with them.

They are just a few examples, have a look at the 'It'll Never Happen' threads on here, there are countless more.

All of this didn't come out of nowhere, and isn't just coincidence. This is the natural consequence of gender ideology doctrine, which is now infiltrating our medical and educational institutions, which states that anyone who 'feels' like a woman should be treated as such without question or criticism.

And before I forget there is also the thousands of young lesbians scrambling for puberty blockers and mastectomies who are being put on medication which will render them infertile, all because they believe that if they are gender non-conforming then they must really be a boy. This is again part of the new gender ideology that Stonewall et al. are pushing on children.

Live and let live doesn't work here, women who are fighting against this know and see the problems inherent with all these lies.

I clearly said that It has never happened to me but that I saw that it clearly had happened to other women. I was simply explaining where I was coming from and why I have been oblivious to the issue.

But responses like this are exactly why I don’t participate more in these discussions, because as soon as anyone opens their mouth other women are waiting to shoot them down. So much for standing together! 🙄

Snippit · 03/05/2022 19:55

I recently saw my M.P about lack of funding for gynaecology. My 26 year old daughter has suffered since she was 13, but never taken seriously. At the age of 21 we paid for her to see a specialist privately. Upon having a laparoscopy it was found that she was riddled with endometriosis and had a unicornuate uterus and a non communicating rudimentary horn that had constantly been bleeding into her pelvis. After many operations the horn and endometriosis has been removed, but she still suffers from horrifically painful periods and a possible return of the endometriosis.

She has been subjected to absolutely awful hormone treatments and we finally got the gynaecologist to agree to a hysterectomy. Unfortunately she became pregnant and miscarried whilst on the waiting list, she became pregnant due to the hormone treatments she’d been given and not warned that it could increase her fertility. Apparently the NHS has decreed that because she didn’t terminate the pregnancy she has been dropped off the waiting list. The consultants have reduced her to tears with the way they’ve spoken to her. They are now undermining her sanity by telling her the pain isn’t so bad, she has no life and hasn’t since she was 14.

what I don’t understand is why do women have to be told to hold onto a totally inefficient uterus that can and does spontaneously abort the foetus. They are making this decision for her, I find it incredulous. We are now going down the path of finding the money to pay for the operation, hopefully we’re successful and she can eventually have a life.

what really annoys me is that some trans women want to be accepted as a real woman. This really gets my back up, unless you have a womb and all the shit that can come with it you can never be classed as one, they can’t imagine what it’s like. Biologically according to Caitlin Jenner they are male and can’t participate in women’s sport as an equal. My daughter wishes she’d been born as a man, and I have to admit that having being on this journey with her I agree.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 03/05/2022 21:20

But responses like this are exactly why I don’t participate more in these discussions, because as soon as anyone opens their mouth other women are waiting to shoot them down.

You think that response to you was you being shot down, AMBE123?? I’m really surprised. I didn’t think that was an aggressive response at all. Frustrated, yes. Really, really frustrated and desperate to be heard, desperate that all this is happening and nowhere near enough people are taking it seriously, I would say. Especially frustrated when it’s other women not engaging with the reality of what’s going on, what we talk about on here.

Most of the post was trying to get across how bad things have got, and in how many different ways this impacts on women, often very vulnerable women. What’s wrong with that? I thought it was a passionate post because that poster cares about this very much. That’s all.

You are absolutely entitled to participate in these discussions, of course you are. But you can’t dictate the way other people respond to you. There was no abuse, no name calling, nothing at all against even the extra-stringent guidelines on this board.

You said, It must also be horrible to be male, innocent but automatically be seen as some kind of a menace, along with I do see that in some lesbian circles, some women want to exclude trans women from social events, to which I say 'Live and let live, they've been through enough', and Roseglen84 said The whole tone of your post seems to be 'poor men, what about the menz feelings'?

Honestly, is that really what you call being shot down?

FWIW, I am married to a man and mother to a son. My DH doesn’t find it “horrible” that women have boundaries that exclude him. He’s perfectly well aware of why women need those boundaries, and doesn’t feel it reflects badly on him in any way at all. He understands the reality of male violence, even though he himself is the least violent man you could meet. He just doesn't take it personally at all.

Your post did strike me as odd when I first saw it because it’s so far from my experience of how decent men feel about the impact of male violence on women’s lives. They don’t feel unjustly accused or maligned. They don’t feel like they themselves are being seen as a menace. They care about women and women’s safety, they know that women are the more vulnerable sex, and they are protective if anything, and keen to support whatever actions keep women safer.

There did seem to be a bias in your post towards male people. Biologically male people who identify as lesbians have “been through enough” and therefore women should set aside their own needs in order to cater to them? Women haven’t “been through enough” across the generations, at the hands of biologically male people, that they’re entitled to some entirely male free spaces?

I don’t suppose there’s much point in me trying to engage with you; if I challenge your view in any way you’ll presumably say how mean I’m being or some such, if you respond at all. But no one is trying to take your voice away from you on here. You’re very welcome to use it.

Robinni · 03/05/2022 22:11

Snippit · 03/05/2022 19:55

I recently saw my M.P about lack of funding for gynaecology. My 26 year old daughter has suffered since she was 13, but never taken seriously. At the age of 21 we paid for her to see a specialist privately. Upon having a laparoscopy it was found that she was riddled with endometriosis and had a unicornuate uterus and a non communicating rudimentary horn that had constantly been bleeding into her pelvis. After many operations the horn and endometriosis has been removed, but she still suffers from horrifically painful periods and a possible return of the endometriosis.

She has been subjected to absolutely awful hormone treatments and we finally got the gynaecologist to agree to a hysterectomy. Unfortunately she became pregnant and miscarried whilst on the waiting list, she became pregnant due to the hormone treatments she’d been given and not warned that it could increase her fertility. Apparently the NHS has decreed that because she didn’t terminate the pregnancy she has been dropped off the waiting list. The consultants have reduced her to tears with the way they’ve spoken to her. They are now undermining her sanity by telling her the pain isn’t so bad, she has no life and hasn’t since she was 14.

what I don’t understand is why do women have to be told to hold onto a totally inefficient uterus that can and does spontaneously abort the foetus. They are making this decision for her, I find it incredulous. We are now going down the path of finding the money to pay for the operation, hopefully we’re successful and she can eventually have a life.

what really annoys me is that some trans women want to be accepted as a real woman. This really gets my back up, unless you have a womb and all the shit that can come with it you can never be classed as one, they can’t imagine what it’s like. Biologically according to Caitlin Jenner they are male and can’t participate in women’s sport as an equal. My daughter wishes she’d been born as a man, and I have to admit that having being on this journey with her I agree.

@Snippit I wanted to reply to you directly before reading anything else.

I am so sorry about everything your daughter has been through. I am awaiting my eighth surgery for this and it has been horrendous. I’ll not go on any further except to say I understand and empathise fully.

Re. Hormone treatments, what you can find is that if you have surgery and hormones it can kill off enough of the endo to enhance your fertility… it’s why they tell us to “save” the surgery until a pregnancy is wanted even though we are in agony.

I would suspect that they may wish to postpone your daughters surgery as long as possible as post hysterectomy there will be increased risk of cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis, prolapse, urinary issues and the op can leave a lot of scar tissue which can cause similar problems to the endo itself in terms of adhesions…. It’s not great for a young woman and if they leave the ovaries or you take hrt after it can stimulate microscopic pockets of endometrial tissue to grow again post hysterectomy….

Now what to do - if she is having a major op privately make sure that there is an ICU present - I went for one surgery privately, they discovered it had invaded my bowel and surgery was too risky… so £6.5k and several wks taken off for next to nothing…

Make sure she is being seen at an endometriosis centre www.bsge.org.uk/centre/

And try health unlocked for the endometriosis U.K. boards for further advice - the women on the board and at the charity are very knowledgeable.

Lots of books on the endo diet too - what you want is to lower the oestrogen from animal products as much as possible and cut out anything that is liable to irritate the gut. Another thing found with endo is you put on weight due to inactivity and also hormonal imbalance, which is not great because guess what - adipose tissue secretes even more oestrogens so it’s a reinforcing loop…

From what I’ve experienced learning to adapt and manage the condition and energy levels is important, I have tried everything, my last mri showed everything yet again a mess and extensive scar tissue too. I haven’t got the life that I had intended on but I do feel fulfilled and strong - which certainly wasn’t the case when initially diagnosed.

I hope your daughter is able to get the help and support she needs both emotionally and physically to cope with this. I can understand your daughter wishing she had been born a boy, I used to wish the same and I prayed that I would have a boy myself to avoid passing this on. I am proud and enjoy being a woman now - severe pain aside - and I also feel proud of what I’ve overcome.

As to how this relates to trans issues. I concur that a transwoman has actually no clue what it actually feels like to be a woman physically nor in terms of the inequalities that we face.

The trans man I worked with went on and on about the awful waits they were going through to get what they were entitled to. How they had had to set up a go fund me to pay for top surgery and how much of a disgrace it was the nhs wouldn’t approve it quicker…..

They saw me struggle to walk every day, feed myself with the same level of pain meds a cancer patient takes, and watched me leave my desk to throw up and nearly pass out on a quite regular basis.

No matter I was suffering from a disease I did not ask for and urgently needed help. They still thought their surgery - for a body fully functioning with no disease - was of equal merit for the use of NHS funds….

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