Page 15 | Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

GoingOnce · 2022-04-28T17:57:00+00:00

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them. The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them). Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:20

rogdmum · 05/05/2022 17:17

stopwaiting

Do you not think it is concerning, or at least odd that the LGTBTYS trainer didn’t refer to the concerns raised in the interim Cass report? That they didn’t mention that the report said:

”Social transition – this may not
be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something
that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning.64,65 There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.“

Do you feel that given the above, teachers are truly competent to decide whether or not a school should support a social transition? That a lobby group knows better than the Cass Review team?

Teachers. Do. Not. Decide.

Nor do we tell people they can "change sex".

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:21

Sorry, I'm not understanding.

You want me to believe anything someone tells me about what they've read on the internet because they have children? strange view to take.

Parents of the teens involved are telling you what is happening and you are telling them that you don't believe them.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:25

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:21

Sorry, I'm not understanding.

You want me to believe anything someone tells me about what they've read on the internet because they have children? strange view to take.

Parents of the teens involved are telling you what is happening and you are telling them that you don't believe them.

Apart from your inability to speak without swearing, (which I've reported you for), you seem to struggle to comprehend.

You said further up you didn't like the fact I wouldn't necessarily take statistics (x percent of children binding, for example) as fact. I accept that, you're entitled to an opinion and so am I.

I said I would accept what is happening from someone who had experience, which you also didn't like and repeatedly told me that they shouldn't have to explain themselves to me. Now you're saying they're telling me their experience and I don't believe them which is the exact opposite of what you're saying.

You can't have it both ways.

I've objected upthread to people saying things from onine research and combatted it with personal experience, and I've been told that I'm not allowed to have an opinion based on personal experience. So why is the swearing saved for me?

End of the day, I', a human behind a computer like you are. I work with teenagers and have certain views. It's allowed. Ultimately you'll go on with your life and I'll go on with mine.

rogdmum · 05/05/2022 17:25

Teachers. Do. Not. Decide.

Maybe you don’t, but in some schools they certainly do. The most you can say is that at your school, teachers don’t decide.

My daughter’s pupil notes (or whatever they’re called, the notes in the system about her) which I obtained via SAR from when she was 14 state, following a meeting between myself and her Year Head who is a teacher and was the decision maker state:

”“[mum believes] using masculine pronouns will be bad for [daughter’s] mental wellbeing. She said that their previous psychologist had agreed…

…[Year Head] emphasised to mum that we have [daughter’s] best interest and wellbeing at heart, and that we will be respecting his wishes to use masculine pronouns.”

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:27

Sorry? you have reported me for swearing?

Well.... that is a new one......

rogdmum · 05/05/2022 17:28

And you say “Teachers. Do. Not. Decide.” but seem quite happy with what is being decided at a higher level. Does the interim Cass Report not give you pause for thought that maybe LGBTYS are not acting responsibly by not giving you full information?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:28

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:27

Sorry? you have reported me for swearing?

Well.... that is a new one......

For swearing aggressively at me. Really unnecessary.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:29

rogdmum · 05/05/2022 17:28

And you say “Teachers. Do. Not. Decide.” but seem quite happy with what is being decided at a higher level. Does the interim Cass Report not give you pause for thought that maybe LGBTYS are not acting responsibly by not giving you full information?

In short, no.

But ultimately, I'm not convinced it matters what I think.

People can mock and attack me all they like, but I have a job to do. When and if the guidance changes, I'll change it.

It's out of my hands. It's out of all of ours.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 05/05/2022 17:29

Don't (fucking) worry @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou, swearing is allowed here so no need to tell on other adults for doing it... this isn't school.

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:30

I might get back to answer that post once I stop laughing about being reported for swearing!

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:31

rogdmum · 05/05/2022 17:25

Teachers. Do. Not. Decide.

Maybe you don’t, but in some schools they certainly do. The most you can say is that at your school, teachers don’t decide.

My daughter’s pupil notes (or whatever they’re called, the notes in the system about her) which I obtained via SAR from when she was 14 state, following a meeting between myself and her Year Head who is a teacher and was the decision maker state:

”“[mum believes] using masculine pronouns will be bad for [daughter’s] mental wellbeing. She said that their previous psychologist had agreed…

…[Year Head] emphasised to mum that we have [daughter’s] best interest and wellbeing at heart, and that we will be respecting his wishes to use masculine pronouns.”

I'm not a year head though. I take my orders from above.

And I really don't think it would have been solely down to the year head. Surely there was some JAT involvement here? (Sorry, Scotland. As in joint action, numerous teams consulted).

Given that you're talking about your own child though, as it is the case that your wishes haven't been heard, I'm genuinely sorry to hear that.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:31

youvegottenminuteslynn · 05/05/2022 17:29

Don't (fucking) worry @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou, swearing is allowed here so no need to tell on other adults for doing it... this isn't school.

Also no need for teachers pets to jump in and get involved in something that's stuff all to do with them.

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:32

Did you or did you not say that you wouldn't believe anything a parent said unless they were parents of trans teenagers?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:32

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:30

I might get back to answer that post once I stop laughing about being reported for swearing!

I swear like a trooper. But at another human? No.

IamEarthymama · 05/05/2022 17:33

@nightwakingmoon
Your contributions are fascinating.
Could you please start a where you recommend some reading on social history.
Thank you

OP let your child take the lead and take the position of religious belief, it is a valid comparison.

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:35

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:32

I swear like a trooper. But at another human? No.

Show quote history

It is irrelevant whether you swear or not.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:35

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:32

Did you or did you not say that you wouldn't believe anything a parent said unless they were parents of trans teenagers?

I said nothing of the sort! I'm not a parent of a teenager, trans or otherwise, so why would I?!

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:36

IamEarthymama · 05/05/2022 17:33

@nightwakingmoon
Your contributions are fascinating.
Could you please start a where you recommend some reading on social history.
Thank you

OP let your child take the lead and take the position of religious belief, it is a valid comparison.

totally invalid comparison. I mean, if you want your child to be an outcast, by all means tell them that.

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/05/2022 17:37

Nor do we tell people they can "change sex

This confusion has come abkut because most the kids see boy and girls as sex based. And the " new " definitions of the word have not been explained to them. And its been changed without anyone being really Aware.

See if they all knew what girl and boy identities were they'd know what people were talking about don't ya think?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:40

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/05/2022 17:37

Nor do we tell people they can "change sex

This confusion has come abkut because most the kids see boy and girls as sex based. And the " new " definitions of the word have not been explained to them. And its been changed without anyone being really Aware.

See if they all knew what girl and boy identities were they'd know what people were talking about don't ya think?

I don't think thats necessary though.

The nuances of gender is a bit much for a child. In the same way that we tell them granny has passed away, we don't describe her death in great detail. Or we tell them mummy's having a baby, we don't tell them that mum and dad had rampant sex

You take my point.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:41

Incidentally Scully I don't think you're wrong. But I think its more of a university level debate than a school. We can't even decide it on here!

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:42

I said nothing of the sort! I'm not a parent of a teenager, trans or otherwise, so why would I?!

Really?

When you posted

The posters claiming its happening aren't relating to dirct experience. I'd believe them if they were.

This in regards to parents who are relaying to you their experiences. But you need them to be worded in such a way that you will then see them as 'direct' enough experiences on an anonymous Internet forum.

I said in the post you reported that it is no one's right to expect a poster to out themselves for credibilities sake. If you choose not to believe people posting, that is your business, but it certainly shows that you seem to have an agenda.

rogdmum · 05/05/2022 17:43

Given that you're talking about your own child though, as it is the case that your wishes haven't been heard, I'm genuinely sorry to hear that

stopwaiting It’s more that the school have intentionally ignored clinical advice, not just our wishes. We’re in the middle of an official complaint which we lodged in 30 August and still don’t have a final outcome for (originally rejected, we filed our appeal on 13 December, no response yet).

it is very useful hear what LGBTYS say in their current training sessions as a transcript from their training 18 months ago is online, and from your posts, it sounds as though it hasn’t changed at all.

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/05/2022 17:43

If course its necessary. That's how language works. Words have meanings and people use thise words in appropriate contexts and everyone understands what's being said

If its too nuanced then surely the kids don't understand enough to even know what they are identifying as surely.

There must me a basic explanation of what a girl identity is so everyone can work.out if they have one or not?

How are you affirming identities when you just admitted the kids don't even understand them at eveb a basic level

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 05/05/2022 17:47

Helleofabore · 05/05/2022 17:42

I said nothing of the sort! I'm not a parent of a teenager, trans or otherwise, so why would I?!

Really?

When you posted

The posters claiming its happening aren't relating to dirct experience. I'd believe them if they were.

This in regards to parents who are relaying to you their experiences. But you need them to be worded in such a way that you will then see them as 'direct' enough experiences on an anonymous Internet forum.

I said in the post you reported that it is no one's right to expect a poster to out themselves for credibilities sake. If you choose not to believe people posting, that is your business, but it certainly shows that you seem to have an agenda.

No, it wasn't.

It was the ones who referred to reports and research.

I'll take your point on that one.

I know I can be a bit , erm , tunnel visioned.

I find it hard to be objective on an issue that affects people I look in the eyes. Maybe that's a flaw but don't think I haven't for a second taken on things I've read on these boards.

No agenda. Not in that sense of the word. Just quite a strong belief.