Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

Sorry night, i laughed out loud at the first paragraph 😂 im debating a name change to magic sky grandpa.

That, i get, but behind the OP, is a real child. And despite OP's faux "I sense he wants to speak", she really just wanted to stir up a good debate about how awful the whole thing is, and she achieved it.

What people say on the internet and what they would say in real life is two different things.

Homosexuality used to be illegal. Your point?

That, i get, but behind the OP, is a real child. And despite OP's faux "I sense he wants to speak", she really just wanted to stir up a good debate about how awful the whole thing is, and she achieved it.

How do you know that's what she wanted? Are you the OP?

She was asking for advice about how to discuss this topic with her 12-year-old son. Not with the child who identifies as transgender. It seemed to me to be a genuine question from a concerned parent.

Yes, this is about a real child, which is why people are concerned that children are being told they can change sex, encouraged in their confusion about their changing bodies at puberty, and in some cases are being given experimental medical treatment which will have a lifelong effect on their bodies. Many of us do think that is awful. Don't you?

Homosexuality is a real thing though

Read the language.

And no, because I rely on real life not statistics where children are not told they can change sex, encouraged in confusion or given medical treatment (10 percent, and most of them are much older).

You know exactly what I meant. Stop being obtuse

Women didnt used to get to vote. and they're real.

Which part is wrong stop ?

That gender identity is unverifiable and undefined ? Because all their ever is is circular definitions. There are no blood tests or brain scans or elimination testing that shows anything.

Its 100 percent a verbal declaration. A verbal declaration that someone is over 18 would not be sufficient at work it certainly shouldn't be sufficient to undergo irreversible treatment.

That we aren't obligated to validate identity? Because we aren't. I have as much responsibility to participate in someone else's believe system as I do to pay for your shopping .

That we shouldn't outsource our care and well being to strangers?

See above. We do not have to play along. That's what friends family and your dr are for. Not unconsenting strangers.

But OP asked for advice for someone she knows,

The part that is wrong is the hype about medical transition.

It's actually pretty rare.

The times recently reported over 50 under 18s having had mastectomies.

Is that enough irreversible damage for you ?

OP, please note that the word gender is a social construct and the word sex is the right one. Even Stonewall used to use 'sex' before they lobbied so much on trans.

The OP said her son has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school.

What do you think this means? Do you think that this child and his classmates have had the difference between sex and gender explained clearly to them or do you think they would take from such an explanation that people can change sex?

Children are having their self declared transgender identities affirmed by schools, often without their parents' knowledge. Is this not encouraging them in their confusion?

Where does your figure of 10% of these children being given medical treatment come from?

The part that is wrong is the hype about medical transition.

It's actually pretty rare.

This is what the Cass review interim report says about social transition which is happening to many children:

Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning.

It's a psychological intervention. Not a medical treatment with drugs or surgery, but still an intervention which affects the psychological wellbeing of the child.

And as for the children being harmed by medical treatments, how many victims do there have to be before you stop dismissing them as 'rare' cases?

You can tell by the above posts that none of you have set foot in a school or known any trans teenagers in recent years.

The times and random studies online can....well, its still early, so I'll be polite.

Transgender, as with all LGBT, is part of the RE Curriculum. It has been for a number of years, and it features in PSE as well. As does sex education.

You are behaving as if we sit down and tell them all to be transgender.

No, they would not think they can change sex, because nobody actually is telling them that, despite MN's insistence that they are.

As for your statement about self declared identities, yes they are affirmed by schools (which I 100 percent agree with), but I've yet to see it happen without parents knowledge. And no, its not encouraging "confusion", and its really patronising of you to continue to refer to it as that simply because you dont agree with it.

I said only 10 percent of people physically transition.

So unless these mythical children are all undertakng medical transition and then de-transitioning, I'm nt sure how that happens (other than the fact us demon schools are all forcing it upon them, of course).

I would honestly suggest that the answer to this, and similar scenarios, is talk to the child. Talk to the school. Don't put words in peoples' mouths and start talking about the myth of changing sex, as I've never actually heard that said. Hopefully you may meet some trans teenagers, as I do and have, and you might see why I'm being so what you believe to be obtuse.

Schools have guidence fir girls doing pe wearing binders fgs. Mermaids have it on their website too.

Binding is extremely dangerous and can permanently deform ribs.

Amd we don't need to work in a school we all have children either caught up in this or friends with children caught up in this.

You seem to be working on the basis that because you think medical intervention is rare you can go along with it all mo matter what harm it does because someone else will gate keep it from getting to out of hand.

You are using others to be the " bad guys " so you can be the good guy.

Well kids are binding In schools. Schools are transitioning children behind the parents backs and binders cause irreversible damage. None of this is OK. And you just filled my bingo card with the paper thing. No source is ever good enough. And whike you express horror at opening articles from whatever paper dares represent an alternative you , you pretend none of this is happening.

It is. And just because < insert approved news source here> aren't reporting on it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou
you have dismissed the views of parents on this thread who actually have trans identifying children. Get off your high horse. And stop scolding posters, repeating ‘be polite’ is not furthering your arguments.
This is very real for some of us, the nonsense you are coming out with is incredible. Social transitioning is a significant step on the pathway. We are not in the US so it is more difficult for children to progress to medical intervention before they are ‘adults’ at 18. This doesn’t mean we should ignore the significance of ‘only’ changing names, pronouns, haircuts, clothing, binders etc.

FFS. This thread has taken the usual turn I see.

The old tropish ‘you don’t really care’ has been played. And now the old ‘you don’t know any trans teens’.

This board has many parents of teens posting daily. It is a board on a parenting site after all. What’s the chances that some of those posting on this very thread are parents of teens or younger children and are very much aware of what is happening in schools? There are also quite a number of teachers who post regularly on this board. So, please stop the crap of ‘you don’t really care, it is just an agenda’.

No. This is something many posters on this board are dealing with on a daily basis. We care because it is OUR children who are dealing with the impact of these issues on a daily basis.

And we know and love teenagers and tweens who have declared they are trans.

I also happen to know two sets of parents where the school did indeed socially transition their teens without the parents knowledge- at the records level. I know another handful with names and pronouns used at the use that parents know nothing about.

And that is just among a couple of forms in one year group at one school. I hear stories from other parents at other schools telling me the same thing.

The point is that we care about our children and their friends. We know our children and their friends and what they are going through and where the information is coming from.

It is always interesting when that old trope keeps getting rolled out here. It is an attempt to discredit other posters. Usually when someone has nothing else to add to counter a statement from an expert like Dr Hillary Cass.

cross post.

This poster has an outstandingly high horse it seems.

No, they would not think they can change sex, because nobody actually is telling them that, despite MN's insistence that they are.

The OP said her son had been taught that people can "change their gender". If you are so sure that children aren't being taught that they can change sex, can you explain what you think is meant by changing "gender"? Or are you suggesting that the OP is mistaken and children aren't being taught that they can change their "gender"?

As for your statement about self declared identities, yes they are affirmed by schools (which I 100 percent agree with), but I've yet to see it happen without parents knowledge.

Yet there are parents posting on this site who have experienced exactly this with their children. And school policies on transgender often state that parents shouldn't be told if a child identifies as trans.

The Interim report from the Cass review makes it clear that social transition is not a neutral act and is considered an intervention, with significant psychological effects on the child, which schools are not qualified to make. What qualifies you to assert that the findings of the review are wrong?

And no, its not encouraging "confusion", and its really patronising of you to continue to refer to it as that simply because you dont agree with it.

If a girl insists she is a boy, when we all know that people can't change sex, do you not think that child is confused?

As for your statement about self declared identities, yes they are affirmed by schools (which I 100 percent agree with), but I've yet to see it happen without parents knowledge

the other question is what exactly* *is it you are affirming.

What are the identities. What are the criteria of a girl/boy/non binary identities.

How can you affirm anything without knowing? You cant jusy say " anyone who identifies as X" identifies as what? What are the characteristics? Given everyone is different the criteria is either so wide it covers anyone and everyone. Or it's an extremely narrow box in which case their must be some defining criteria that they all have in common or how would they know what does or doesn't make them a boy or a girl?

If you have involvement in schools then you deal with that 1000/2000 Kids in high school? What's the single common denominator that tips them over the edge between a girl who likes all the same Things and does all the same things as a girl who said she's a boy, but still says she's a girl?

What are you affirming?

You cant identify as something you cant define. So define a girl identity and a boy identity so the rest if us can work.our if we have one too

I am also quite surprised that a poster is stating how LGB people should define their own sexual orientation while telling people off for querying exactly what these children and teens are experiencing so that it can be defined.

As a PP said, most people commenting have teens and are either the parents of trans teens or there are trans teens in their family, or DC's friendship groups. More and more families are becoming involved in these issues.

It's unclear whether you're trans, a teacher or a parent of a trans child but your anecdotal evidence does not trump other's 'lived experiences' or the abundance of facts and research. You seem very naive about a lot of this. But there are lots of threads here and lots of sources of information where you can learn more. Then you could stop derailing threads for others who are looking for advice.

I presume you dont mean me, since I wouldn't get sex and gender mixed up.

I'm a teacher.

I've just come from an in service day where we did a full day of training with LGBT Youth Scotland and we are now certified (so believe me, as much as I'd have liked to spend my day finding boards to troll, I'm now up to date with what happens in schools).

Derailing is a stupid word, unless I jumped on talking about pineapples. EEverything I've posted has been relevant, and sadly I'm far more naive (or, as pointed out above, do I need to learn more).

If you could find me someone on this thread who is 'looking for advice' instead o just denying the existent of trans or gender, I'd be interested to see it.

Is there a reason you guys use these questioning to show you know better than the bodies who put the language, the behaviour policies and the strategies into schools in the first place?