Snooker

[TeenPlusCat]

I've been dipping in and out of the snooker this week, and a bit came up this afternoon about the women's world championship, and the fact that 2 women are now qualified to go on the main tour.
Anyway, they mentioned in passing that the first transgender (MtF) snooker player had got to the semi finals (Jamie Hunter).

Now obviously there is no obvious physical disadvantage to women playing snooker (except I suspect height and reach will still make a difference), but there is obviously a women's competition for a reason....
A teen boy hanging out playing pool/snooker would be a lot more usual than a teen girl, so at the age Jamie was developing their skills, a girl would be much less likely to have felt welcome?

To be honest I think you're reaching a bit here. Snooker is one activity that probably shouldn't be segregated by sex (or gender for that matter). There is definitely an issue that girls are less likely to take it up however that is a different issue and it has been great to see female referees at almost every session of every big tournament in recent years.

Money is a huge factor.
Many of the women players also have to work or have childcare/ caring responsibility plus no sponsorship.

Well that's it, I'm unsure how I feel about it.
There definitely isn't a physical risk or disadvantage (part from as I said potentially height or reach).

But there must be some kind of social disadvantage that the women's competitions are trying to overcome? Otherwise they wouldn't have them?
So if someone who was raised male didn't have those disadvantages, is it fair they take the place of someone else?

Surely strength also makes a difference in snooker?

Snooker really isn’t my thing but, having attempted to play on a full-size table, I am not convinced that height and arm reach are insignificant.

And hand size

But there must be some kind of social disadvantage that the women's competitions are trying to overcome? Otherwise they wouldn't have them?

I think you are assuming cause and effect where non exists. The social disadvantage and the segregated sport have a common cause- sexism. Breaking that barrier down by having women in the 'mens' event is a good thing.

I don't think there is any basis to stop transwomen competing against women in sports where there is no advantage. We want to work towards those sports being mixed.

We need to focus on defending fairness in majority of sports where biology matters or we will look like bigots.

is it fair they take the place of someone else?

This is the question, if it means a women now can't compete then I don't agree with it, if a women doesn't get a chance to complete in the world championships then it is wrong.

I'd be interested in seeing Jamie's stats from 2019 when competing before transition. 2022 is the first year competing in the women's and already ranked 14th in the world overall and 5th in the world when only this year taken into account.
If there is no advantage/difference why is Jamie competing in the women's?

This is the problem isn't it, it's not fairness in the sense of biological differences, but fairness in that a women has now lost out to a man.

Er, no

Higglighying: Jamie ranks 5th in the world based on the last 12 months. The women ranked 1 and 2 are on the professional circuit...but it definitely couldn't be about the money....could it?

I come from a family of snooker enthusiasts and used to play pool quite well but I gave it up in my teens due to my boobs becoming too large to play without some comment or sniggering from men and making it more difficult leaning over at the table. Also my hands were too small to make a good arch which put me at a disadvantage to the men and I just didn’t have the height or reach to move up to snooker.
We shouldn’t forget that in any sport, even those that initially seem like they could be easily mixed, women are often at a disadvantage due to menstruation.

I've wondered the same thing about darts - how much is physical strength/reach, and how much is time spent playing over and over?

None of the usual cited factors have a bearing in the sport, strength, hand size, lung capacity, speed etc are not factors. There are sex categories because it was a "man" sport until women said hang on a minute. They then got fobbed off with their own league. Not because they were different to men but because they weren't men. That simple and basic.

Trying to make this about protecting women is where it starts to sound a bit silly. The correct fight to have here is the inclusion of women as a whole to the same leagues as men - including the sponsorship, coaching opportunities etc that the men get. Trying to fight to keep transwomen out of the women's league is arse about face.

Jamie made the semi final of the very first event they played, the English womens open in 2021

height & reach make a considerable difference but even if Jamie was 5ft with a tiny reach, they are male & don’t belong on the womens tour. A biological woman is missing out so Jamie can play, that is unfair.

Height and arm length do make a difference in snooker/ pool. Of course they do. Social factors matter too when it comes to fairness. Snooker halls can be quite intimidating for girls in a way they aren’t for boys. So boys can get more practice in when young. My ds plays pool with his friends without a second though. My dd although older would never just go to the pool hall with her friends. And that’s because she is female and he is male.
So I would agree it is unfair as males have advantage ( and menstruating each month etc is a disadvantage for all women and girls for all sorts of activities generally. It’s just something makes do not have to deal with)

What's the point of women's events and a women's tour if they let in males though?

I saw the same coverage as you OP and apart from that mention the rest was all making the right noises about widening the appeal of the game, getting girls and women involved etc. I wonder if there'd have been more made of the trans competitor if it hadn't been for Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges recently.

If there is no dis/advantage then why do the women not play against men?

I used to play darts at university. I don't think there is a physical strength/reach aspect to it, but again there is very much a social bias. My college was an all female one. When we played other colleges they tended to be very dismissive of us (and tended not to concentrate properly because of it until they realised we were winning).

Continuing on the darts theme. At uni we had both an annual women's competition as well as an 'open'. This was directly to overcome social barriers which were stopping women from playing and to encourage some participation.

Oh, god yes. Longer arms, taller height, etc, muscularity, all will have a huge difference.

I actually did look into this a while back and it seems males may also have certain advantages wrt tracking images at speed, iirc.

So apart from height and reach...anyone else getting a 'what have the Romans done for us' vibe?

That said, probably one of the sports where the sexes could compete more equally.

I looked into it because I was getting pissed off that DP kept beating me at pool. Which is definitely not because I'm shit at it.

'Females are better at discriminating among colors, researchers say, while males excel at tracking fast-moving objects '

www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/120907-men-women-see-differently-science-health-vision-sex

That's leaving aside the many societal and cultural disadvantages, of course.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-47732213

I think they probably could, and the main reason they don't is, I suspect (with zero data), that the numbers of women playing snooker at any level is tiny compared with men.