Snooker

[TeenPlusCat]

I've been dipping in and out of the snooker this week, and a bit came up this afternoon about the women's world championship, and the fact that 2 women are now qualified to go on the main tour.
Anyway, they mentioned in passing that the first transgender (MtF) snooker player had got to the semi finals (Jamie Hunter).

Now obviously there is no obvious physical disadvantage to women playing snooker (except I suspect height and reach will still make a difference), but there is obviously a women's competition for a reason....
A teen boy hanging out playing pool/snooker would be a lot more usual than a teen girl, so at the age Jamie was developing their skills, a girl would be much less likely to have felt welcome?

Interesting we always look at morphological differences but not neurological differences. I'm not sure how the feminist mumsnetters will appreciate being told that men have the edge mentally as well as physically.

Not quite. We are only too aware of the socialisation effect that comes into play once kids are old enough for self awareness. And there is growing evidence, alongside a growing willingness and ability to research, hard wired sex based differences from birth - this is the Man = hunter; Woman = nurturing reality of sex based differences. Nobody in their right mind would throw away half of the nature/nurture input because they didn't like it. Oh! No, wait... maybe some would. But not me! Nor many women that I know.

Many animal studies and a wide variety of studies of very young children have always shown sex based cognitive differences. For example spatial-visualisation in 2- and 3-month-olds. Girls respond more readily to faces and begin talking earlier. Boys react earlier in infancy to 'unexpected items in the playing area'. In adulthood, women remain more oriented to faces, men to things. Not enormous differences, but statistically important ones. Why? Simplistically: Hormones. Science is still working on it.

Men have more spatial awareness, women have faster reflexes. Wonder why? Catch a running antelope; catch a falling child? Maybe?

But don't presume to know how women will respond to being informed of various sex based differences. We aren't ill educated children, prone to throwing a sulk when things don't go our way!

Given the username it has been hard not to shout at fishy

But I don't want to be banned for laughing like a drain at a psoter, so I haven't.

'In space, nobody can hear you laugh like a drain'

🚀😂🤗🚀

There is a woman on the World Snooker main tour, Reanne Evans is a 12 times Women's World Champion, she is competing against the men. In darts Fallon Sherrock & Lisa Ashton play on the main tour competing against men.

And also Ng On Yee, who is the top Asian women's player, she can participate in the World Snooker Tour with all the male pros, just like Reanne Evans. Asia, particularly China has sooo much money and commitment to the game, it's a different world over there, they play it in school. Maybe a really competitive woman competing in the WST might be nurtured over there.

It's worth saying that players like Reanne Evans who have children (and I think she's a single parent as she split with partner) just have less time to put into the game, which might be the major stumbling block.

With snooker the big boys practice 8 hours a day most if not every day of the week which might not be practical for as many women. Hugely talented players like Evans will be hindered by their responsibilities, unlike the men.

Not sure how Women's snooker feel about having a biological male compete and I feel it's their call. If it is an issue to them we may never find out as perhaps the money may be too flimsy to risk and the coverage is so small. Guess wait and see how well Jamie performs.

You would be surprised how little the pros practice, my late dp only practiced 3-4 hours a day when he had a tournament to play, other than that he played for pleasure Mark Williams doesn't practice at all.

Looks like our girl Jamie is going from strength to strength 👎.

www.sports365.info/2022/08/29/snooker/snooker-chief-hails-first-transgender-winner-and-says-issues-with-other-sports-dont-apply/

This might prove that there is a difference in playing snooker between males and females. From reading the article it seems like not much science has been done. But if the players don't like it, they need to say something, personally I think Jamie ought to just compete through the 'men's' channels which are 'open' anyway (the women can't seem to break in which is interesting, especially in light of this) - there seems to be at least a sliver of doubt on male advantage and they are biologically male.

The physical differences might not be as apparent as with rugby or boxing, for example, though I don't think that's evidence that they don't exist. Perhaps mixed sex competitions will be fair and the way forward in future. But right now they are not and money that has been ring fenced for female players, to try and reduce the sex pay gap, is being made available to male players. That's what we're seeing here. That's what happens when you split the world into 'men' and 'not men' and don't allow women to exist as a category in their own right. There are men, and then there is everyone else, and everyone else includes everyone female bodied and some males who have decided they are not like other males and therefore must go into the 'other' category and are therefore entitled to access to all resources earmarked for the 'not men' group.

Yeah, I mean, the absolute strongest case for retaining a pure female class is where there's an obvious safety imperative [combat and collision sports, e.g. rugby, boxing, MMA, wrestling, etc].

Next strongest is in sports where there's no obvious safety angle but where body size really obviously confers an intolerable advantage [e.g. weightlifting, basketball, swimming, rowing, throwing athletics events, tennis, etc etc].

We're not in that territory here, but, as already pointed out earlier in this thread:

(a) Being male does confer at least some physical advantages; and
(b) There's a clear, very significant, difference in M/F participation rates in the sport, such that, for participation to be improve, women and girls need all the incentives and opportunities they can get.

@Wanderingowl
Great comment.

You may be interested in Dr Emma Hilton's take on women's dominance in ultra events. There are no obvious physiological advantages for women in these events, so she thinks it could come down to this -
1 There are more elite women athletes competing in these sports compared to men so it's elite women versus sub-elite men and
2 These events have a larger psychological component - after a while it just becomes about the athlete's willingness to get up in the morning and run another marathon or swim another 10k (or however long the courses are). Elite athletes are likely to have greater mental strength than sub-elite, regardless of sex.

Exactly - deal with the world as it is now, not as we would like it to be or hope it will become. Otherwise nothing will improve for women.

Sorry wasn't sure if you were saying snooker needs to be mixed. Apart from the women's game, it is mixed. If women qualify they are as welcome to win say the Masters as Ronnie O Sullivan.

But they don't, women don't tend to rise up in the big tournaments hence the need for a women's league. And Jamie coming out top suggests there might be male advantage. They need more research.

In the Times:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6c08649c-29ea-11ed-a830-74a6c8fbb722?shareToken=b2681e0f7d22080b861d2c95efe09848