Snooker

[TeenPlusCat]

I've been dipping in and out of the snooker this week, and a bit came up this afternoon about the women's world championship, and the fact that 2 women are now qualified to go on the main tour.
Anyway, they mentioned in passing that the first transgender (MtF) snooker player had got to the semi finals (Jamie Hunter).

Now obviously there is no obvious physical disadvantage to women playing snooker (except I suspect height and reach will still make a difference), but there is obviously a women's competition for a reason....
A teen boy hanging out playing pool/snooker would be a lot more usual than a teen girl, so at the age Jamie was developing their skills, a girl would be much less likely to have felt welcome?

Men's competition already is open to women, most earth-shatteringly obviously of all open to 'trans women', but there are well established reasons why women's-only competition is attractive [not least to trans women].
I was going to ask this so thanks. I believe jts the same jn darts. Women are allowed I'm the main competition but hardly feature and there is a wkmems tournament too.

Sorry about typos!

Absolutely this.
Why can't men f off out of women's sport?
There is no reason why Jamie can't play in the men's game, wearing whatever Jamie wishes.

Yep Jamie. Play with the men no reason not to

Agree - hands, arm length, height, boobs etc.

Yes a transwoman might have breast implants but with implants you get to choose the size you want, or whether to have them at all.

It’s been years since I played but as PPs have said the atmosphere in a club was awful, sexist and intimidating, especially if you don’t have the ‘protection’ of a boyfriend, brother or dad who plays, or ones who would bother to protect you. Apart from the sexual harassment etc, many men really did not like it if I won. That’s a really hostile environment to play and practice in. I doubt it’s changed much now.

Plus many men have been brought up playing for years (sneaking in underage, taught by family etc) whereas that is rare for women so I was always playing catch up. It also helped a lot that I’m tall for a woman.

There’s no reason that a transwoman couldn’t carry on in the male league - both sexes wear trousers to play. If they try to make any argument about differences in hormones then they automatically argue themselves out of the women’s game having gone through male puberty and having who knows what testosterone levels.

I'm wondering about hip rotation/pelvis swivel.

And of course hormonal changes which affect many women with great regularity and certainly can affect performance. Can't imagine playing snooker with period pains, frankly. Or pregnant.

Who's going to tell me someone eight months pregnant has just the same disadvantage as the tubby bloke mentioned upthread?

In early replies to the OP upthread I added strength and hand size to the list of physical differences that would benefit men Strength was almost immediately poo-pooed, but it is absolutely the case that you need strength (or maybe power is a better word) for the opening break and some of the pots. Of course many women will have able to develop enough power to be on a level playing field with men, but the number of women who can compete with men will be a far lower proportion of women as a class Just playing pool with friends shows the disparity and that will persist in all lower level competitiond. It is a class difference and the cumulative impact of class differences with respect to various physical traits will mean women cannot be on an even playing field before you even get on to the social obstacles and the fact that the whole point of the women's completion is to promote the sport for a specified group.

Yes the main snooker events aren't actually gendered, at least one woman has broken through to the early stages but got knocked out a few years ago.

Snooker is exceedingly blokey and old fashioned, only a few years ago a female referee left due to sexism, so it's probably down to a comfort issue of being accepted. It certainly would raise a few eyebrows with this crowd which I would like to see.

Re size, Ken Docherty is very slight, small hands / arm span yet he was a World champion.

I see the chest issue, can I point out that there are quite a few tubby top male players resplendent with man boobs, i.e. Shaun Murphy.

But I agree with other posters, a women's league is a women's league whether that be chess or cycling. And yes as much as I love it, snooker is not a great environment for women.

Curious as to whether this attitude extends to sports with size/weight categories? Would you think that only the top weight category in boxing, weightlifting, judo, etc be worth watching? As they will punch harder, lift more, throw harder? What about rowing? Are the lightweight categories not worth watching? Are the Eights the pinnacle or is it the singles??

Do you only ever watch elite level sport, never any lower levels? Is the European football competition less valid than the World Cup?

Re. Beer gut/pregnant belly comparison, I don't think a guy's pot (snooker geddit!) Is likely to stretch or suddenly kick him in the bladder.

I'm 5 ft 1 with GGs. My male partner is about 6ft. We each have corresponding wingspan and hand size. Do people think he would have an advantage over me at snooker, because I can't help think his size would give him an advantage.

Just remembered, my Dad was a member of the British Legion. Women weren't even allowed in the snooker room.

As someone who plays. developing big tits, and being short (5'4") was a HUGE disadvantage.

People saying ‘but that bloke is shorter and still a champion’ do understand that even as a shorter male, they potentially have longer arms, stronger wrists, larger hands etc.

I also agree about the power aspect for that break (or whatever). Would grip power also come into that??

Does breathing have an effect on aim in snooker? Women need more breaths. Does this mean that they have less time to aim and shoot.

I can think of a number of other skeletal proportion differences. Would those sex category differences matter?

I know people often state that snooker has little impact sex wise. I would be surprised though, if sexed bodies didn’t have more of a difference than first thought.

Yes about weight categories. The only ones I care about are the best. The eights rowing or singles I don't mind I'm not sure what the question is here the 8 person boat was the 8 best people then I would treat it the same as the single competition. And of course the European competition is less valid than the world cup. Count the number of stars on the shirt next to the badge of a national team they relate to world cup only.

I do watch some sport like kiddies football and under 18's if it happens to be on (just like women's football although I'm confident the England under 16's team would beat the England women's team) but generally I don't hunt it out. Likewise I follow my local football team but only really the team that is represented by the best 11 players.

But back to snooker. I really can't see why women can't compete at the top like darts or some Motorsport. I want to see the best human talent there solely on merit.

Isn’t there also something about the elbow joint? Women’s arms angle out from the elbow and men’s are straight? Wouldn’t this make a difference too?

I was thinking that too nellodee.

And also what ligament changes during the menstrual cycle could mean for both the ‘power’ aspect and the mechanical aspect.

here are the top grossing (ie garnering most public interest) boxing matches of all time. four of the five involved Floyd Mayweather, a chap who fought between super featherweight and light middleweight, ie between 9st and 11st.

www.google.com/amp/s/talksport.com/sport/boxing/929210/top-boxing-ppvs-of-all-time-manny-pacquiao-floyd-mayweather-jr-conor-mcgregor-holyfield-tyson-de-la-hoya/amp/

he's arguably the most skillful boxer of all time and as such arguably the most interesting to watch. but his professional career only existed at all as a result of the protection of weight categories. even a journeyman club level heavyweight would have flattened him. even one of his own (mimum wage, against FM easily the biggest earning boxer of all time) bodyguards would have had a better then even chance.

www.bosshunting.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/2686300.main_image.webp

This argument will increasingly see women's sport marginalized and less well funded. The best women need to be competing against the best men in the open category where they can. Otherwise it can be seen as a lesser competition.

I don't really get the height/arm length complaints to be honest. Pro sports always attracts extremes of body type so they're not really representative of typical people.
Should I not be allowed to play against women because I'm larger than the average male (taller, bigger span, bigger hands, average male sized feet)

Strength possibly a consideration but easily overcome I'd have thought. I do agree on the need for separate women's provision to encourage women into sports.

I would love to watch women's snooker (the best biological females). Is it televised?

Sure.

But if there is biological constraints, what are the chances that female sport will ever be given any consideration if people took the attitude that females are obviously ‘inferior’ if they cannot make it to the open category.

And how many women have been world champions at snooker? If it was purely social elements and not physical advantages at play, there would be at least one one the last decade? No?

The only person on this thread positing that women are lesser in sport because they are not winning against the males is you.

Nope because the population isn't interested.

But it's not just me. Wimbledon don't charge the same for women's finals day as men's. The women's football game can't demand the same ticket prices or attendances as men. By removing the best acheivers from the sport that competition will not be seen as the pinnacle and get the biggest viewing figures and attendances. And this is what happens and it becomes like the under 18's world cup, para sport (although I do watch wheelchair tennis which I believe able bodied can play in a wheelchair) or indeed any other sport where people are excluded for any reason other than not being the best applicant for that position. That is the reality viewing figures don't lie the public watch elite human sport and they don't care about the sex. This is despite much political correctness and enforcement of equal prize money.