I got called bigoted and trans exclusionary...

[Mahanii]

...for the first time last night, in 2 separate conversations, by 2 really good friends. And it's really upset me. I thought they knew me well and accepted me as I am, as I accept them. That's all.

What views do you hold that they think are trans exclusionary?

One called me bigoted because I said there are 2 biological sexes, male and female, and that I would like everyone to be able to present however they see fit but that you can't change your sex.
The other called me trans exclusionary because I said I wouldn't want men in women's spaces.

Congratulations!
Welcome to terfdom! We're a lovely bunch of you value women and girls and safeguarding.

If I'm called a TERF I always say Yes! Yes I am. I will always exclude men from my feminism but actually Trans Identified Females are more than welcome.

I presume you're okay with transmen in women's spaces? So you're not trans exclusionary, you're male exclusionary. Which is allowable when it comes to women's spaces.

Get some new friends..ones that stand up for women.

Yes I would be ok with transmen in women's spaces because I would feel comfortable with them, knowing that at some point in our lives we have shared the experience of being female.

Is this a bigoted point of view? I admit I have past trauma with men clouding my perspective. I'm happy to reconsider if the argument makes sense (my friends' responses didn't).

So on the one hand your friends appear to disagree that there are two biological sexes? But on the other hand know what sex you’re referring to when you say you don’t want men in women’s spaces.

Sounds like you need new friends for them to react that way.

2 separate conversations so sort of saying different things.
I love both of these friends. I think of friendship as being where you accept the other with all their beliefs, opinions and quirks, because you enjoy their company, maybe share history, respect each other. So I haven't called them any names for holding their beliefs around trans people and gender/sex. But they have, which is what I find really upsetting.

It's sensible and factual. They are resorting to ad hominem attacks because you are in the right of the argument and they can't win on the facts. So sorry they've been unpleasant OP. And yes, it is ridiculous that believing in science and respecting Women’s's boundaries is somehow seen as evil.

Congratulations. If your friends say they don't believe water is wet that's up to them. At some level at least, they know you are correct. It's why they are so rude.

I wouldn’t fret, give it a year and they will be claiming this view was what they held all along.

@OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow do you think so? What makes you think that?

It's not the view they hold that upsets me, it's the falling out over my view! Can't friends have different views?!

Yes they can, I hold different views to some of my friends, we all vary slightly, although they all agree with me on this particular issue.

Them calling you names though, that's not friendship.

This is my go-to as well. People work it out gradually, hang on in there (but do point out they were rude and your views are widely held).

I lost a good friend over this too. She just ghosted me though. Didn’t even TRY and understand there may be a valid reason I think there are two biological sexes. Even writing it down seems daft right? But then she lives in the USA and so I just shrugged. The USA are more lost in all this batshittery than the U.K.

Welcome. And solidarity.

Welcome to the club ! There are loads of us out here in the wild.
May I suggest that you find a women’s group in your area & find that you are far from alone in being a sensible person.

I sometimes think this particular narrative is the only one where different views are not tolerated.

I have a dear friend who is a lawyer who works in surrogacy contracts. She believes surrogate mothers deserve high pay and writes contracts to this effect.

I am vehemently against all commercial surrogacy and feel really uncomfortable with altruistic. I'm also vehemently against egg donation. She knows I work, when I can, to oppose her work. Yet, somehow we have remained friends with zero fights and zero name calling. I joke that I'll persuade her eventually to my way of thinking.

And maybe, someday I will.

I question (usually privately) her ethics around this issue, but I reconcile that she comes to this point of view in a very different way (she believes she is preventing exploitation of surrogate mothers), and she respects my position that women's bodies should never be commodified.

Good luck OP, friends don't need to name call. It's degrading.

Ahh well. Different strokes for different folks.

Friends certainly can have different views. I dislike the extremism in the usual retorts about someone being a bigot for stating a biological fact. The response doesn't make sense and comes directly from the #nodebate order: Nobody is allowed to say that the emperor is naked.

But he is. And that's the problem.

I am sorry for your experience. I hope that your friends will come around to understanding your arguments better even if they might not agree.

The real bigots are those who refuse to listen to other points of view. Have you asked them to explain their viewpoint? I have and can never get a rational answer. As for "trans exclusionary" I put the safety of women before the preferences of men - why dont you?

Spot on there! They will just tap dance away from the subject now the wind has changed. I too am sick of this fuckery , having been cancelled by several women who say they are feminists, most recently for mildly opining that Danel Radcliffe was a bit ungrateful to JKR. My Y chromosome notwithstanding.

Shame, OP.

How many sexes does your friend believe in?

I accept I won’t be friendly with most people who believe in gender ideology. They’re too involved in their crusade.

No problem with them disagreeing, but the real issue is their rudeness. They know they can’t defend their views, so resort to rudeness. That’s not acceptable. As they think so poorly of you, I’d be tempted to persist and ask them what the third biological sex is (or 4th or 5th).

I’ve given up on my friend. I’ve been polite and very mild in what I said but I’ve been met with rudeness and an absolute refusal to engage in the points I’ve made. To me, it’s a sign of insecurity and a sign that deep down they know their views won’t stand up to any scrutiny.