Boris or bust?

[tabbycatstripy]

It’s not a decision I’ve come to lightly. I think Johnson is casual with the truth, lies when he believes it suits him, doesn’t particularly grace his office.

I’ve had to make my mind up whether I care more about him lying and eating too much cake than I care about children having healthy parts of their bodies removed, because of an excessively liberal worldview that doesn’t seem to be able to balance the rights of the child with the rights of adults to express themselves.

At the end of the day I - and I voted Labour for nearly thirty years - will vote for people who choose to do something about childhood transition. That’s my red line.

In a choice between self-interested liars and inflexible ideologues the liars are better.

Absolutely, I'd take a liar who knows that a woman is an adult human female over the alternative every time.

The determination of labour to promote lies as facts calls into question their intellectual / moral ability to stand up to other challenges. When they speak crap about not saying women have cervixes, rapists must be in cells with women and have spent years enabling the bullying of labour women, how the hell can they challenge climate change, Putin, organised crime, corruption, VAWG and all the other problems we face?

Hannah Arendt nailed it:
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists .

BJ is no friend of women, despite what he recently said. The austerity policies that have left millions in poverty have disproportionately affected women. He has no interest in protecting women and will just do what is best for his career. In his personal life, he also seems like a giant misogynist so no thank you.

This.

Every vote for the Tories is a vote for a party happy to keep on an MP who would pimp out your daughters to rich white men. (see Jamie Wallis).
Vote Tory - they may be lying, corrupt, self-serving, racist, misogynist pigs but they KNOW what women are for.

Politicians of all stripes have been proven corrupt, venal, abusive and sexually incontinent since Parliament has existed.

Politics requires even the good ones to lie.

This whole thread is just playing into the hands of people like that idiot Ann Coates on Twitter who posts a thread every day about how awful and genocidal we all are.

Why are you trying to silence women?

‘Sorry have you forgotten all the other shit he’s pulled just because you and he align on a very small bit of agenda?’

I am making a rational decision that I care more about protecting children from unnecessary and (in my view) very harmful medical procedures to support an extreme ideological position than I do about most other issues.

So I don’t forget those other issues, but I am choosing not to prioritise them, which in a democratic system we all have the right to do.

‘This whole thread is just playing into the hands of people like that idiot Ann Coates on Twitter who posts a thread every day about how awful and genocidal we all are.’

I’m not genocidal because I choose to vote for BJ. You can argue I am wrong to vote for him, but if you suggest that’s ‘genocidal’ (which I am not saying you’re doing yourself right now) that’s absolutely removed from reality

@londresstrutt irony a liar who says he knows what a woman is. Talk about gullible. More like conservative supporters just trying to stir things up.

The Tories are removing the right to demonstrate. They're watering down the right to bring a judicial review claim. And that's just the beginning. Vote them in and they will do whatever the hell they want in the future. And women's rights are clearly a very long way down their agenda. I'm sure Boris would sacrifice his own granny for power or money. He doesn't give a toss about our (or probably his) daughters.

And at the moment Boris is the only leader who has spoken any sense.

Has he followed through with actions? Has he taken all penis and testicle havers out of women's prisons?

[quote Alcoh]@lakeswimmer you are right re rest of world but I thought we were talking about the U.K. and the Tory party in particular.[/quote]
We are talking about the UK and self-ID hasn't progressed here in the way it has in other places. What's the difference? Possibly the government although there may be other factors.

@MarshaBradyo

To me this slow move towards eroding women’s rights and denial of biology has more a weathervane feel in that it’s a blatant untruth stated because politicians feel they should. Whether they believe in that lie or not.

Absolutely. For me, the fact that some politicians haven't got the nerve to speak the truth when it comes to scientific facts is an indicator that they're not up to the job, whatever party they represent.

If a senior politician is too craven to want to offend the likes of Owen Jones then how are they capable of making tough and unpopular decisions about public spending or an international crisis?

‘The Tories are removing the right to demonstrate. They're watering down the right to bring a judicial review claim. And that's just the beginning.’

I’m going to be honest and say I’ve found as I’ve grown older that claims like this are never as simple as they seem.

So take the Extinction Rebellion protests. I think they should have a right to protest but I don’t think they should have a right to take over roads used as ambulance routes, or stop people from getting to work. I actually agree with them about some aspects of their argument, but I lose all sympathy when I see them shrugging off someone having a heart attack and dying in an ambulance on the road they are blocking.

So no, the Tories aren’t trying to stop people demonstrating. They’re trying to stop people demonstrating from disrupting ordinary citizens and their activities.

I think their bill goes too far and it needs to be watered down, but I genuinely don’t believe they want to end political protest.

Some people are given to exaggeration, and the more they exaggerate the less inclined I am to listen to them. I think a lot of people are the same.

If you think the right to protest changes aren't undemocratic and a real threat to society I don't really know what to say to you.
To say that it is a feminist decision to vote in support of Boris Johnson is dreadful. It's not a vote in support of women. The policies of his government have proven time and again to hit women hardest. Look at how he talks about Muslim women. Look at how he treats the women in his life. Have you forgotten about the police being called to his flat due to a domestic incident? Look at the handling of women's pensions.
Make whatever decision you want obviously. But don't pretend that this is a good one for women's rights.

I didn’t say it was a feminist decision. I said I’m voting this way because of the medical scandal of childhood transition.

But no, I don’t think restricting the right to protest is inherently undemocratic. When people present a risk to the lives of others (by blocking ambulance routes, for example) I don’t lose any sleep over moving them on. They can arrange a march like everyone else.

Nobody in this country (not the Tories or anyone else) is restricting their right to say their piece, to wave their banners, to persuade anyone and everyone of the validity of their cause.

So actually I’m not worried about them, I’m worried about children having their healthy bodies altered activist medics.

You?

@GrammarTeacher

If you think the right to protest changes aren't undemocratic and a real threat to society I don't really know what to say to you. To say that it is a feminist decision to vote in support of Boris Johnson is dreadful. It's not a vote in support of women. The policies of his government have proven time and again to hit women hardest. Look at how he talks about Muslim women. Look at how he treats the women in his life. Have you forgotten about the police being called to his flat due to a domestic incident? Look at the handling of women's pensions. Make whatever decision you want obviously. But don't pretend that this is a good one for women's rights.

What are these 'women' you're talking about? Are we to keep the normal meaning of the word if Labour win power?

Or will we be variously described by our body parts?

If they can't say what a woman is in opposition, what the heck are they going to do once in power?

Yes, Boris is personally pretty despicable, but somehow connects with people and is not that unpopular, considering his sins. All politicians lie and are amoral, afaics it's in the job description.

The issue is with current Labour, the opposition they provide is inadequate, and they are far from ready for Government. This shit doesn't help, but is not the only factor for me.

Making decisions based on extremes is not how to make good policy. The protests at the fuel depots are being policed. The penalties that Priti Patel wishes to put in would have harsher sentences than many regimes we judge as being repressive.
Conservative policies have pushed thousands into poverty. This is a far bigger risk than the non-risk you are worried about. Due to his decisions in recent years we have experienced over 100,000 surplus deaths. They were (the Conservatives not Johnson) of the issues with cladding over a decade before Grenfell. Schools and hospitals are stretched beyond all reason. That is what you are also voting for.

Yes, I blame Labour. I voted for Blair, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn.

I will not vote for Keir Starmer.

Grammar:

But you have nothing to say about the medical scandal of childhood transition at all?

We are talking about the UK and self-ID hasn't progressed here in the way it has in other places.
Hasn't it?
Do we have any numbers of transwomen turned down for a GRC after champion of women's rights, Boris Johnson helpfully reduced the fee to £5 for them?

@LK1972 no, all politicians do NOT lie in parliament. It is against their standards. For decades that resulted in an immediate resignation (cf. Profumo). I have no trouble with trans women are women. I know most of you disagree. I avoid discussion on here generally now. However, anyone thinking voting for Conservatives is a good idea for human rights is in for a rude awakening.
I'm bisexual and have already observed that the so-called LGB Alliance is posting bi-phobia on line. This will not stop with trans people (not that this is why I defend trans people).
Regardless, Johnson is either inept, idiotic or both. This makes him an awful choice of leader. Regardless of his standpoint on trans rights. His history shows his he doesn't really do standpoints anyway.

I don't think it's a medical scandal. I know how long the waiting lists are and how many hoops people have to jump through. I have taught trans students and had some in my form.

@Kendodd

We are talking about the UK and self-ID hasn't progressed here in the way it has in other places. Hasn't it? Do we have any numbers of transwomen turned down for a GRC after champion of women's rights, Boris Johnson helpfully reduced the fee to £5 for them?

GRC is not self-id, can't see any issues with making government bureaucracy cheaper for people, isn't that a good thing?

Completely agree, OP.

I will do anything to protect my children from this dangerous nonsense, so will do anything to keep Labour out. If that means voting tory so be it. This is a one issue sticking point for me, because of the catastrophic effects 'self ID' will have on our children's future lives!