Boris or bust?

[tabbycatstripy]

It’s not a decision I’ve come to lightly. I think Johnson is casual with the truth, lies when he believes it suits him, doesn’t particularly grace his office.

I’ve had to make my mind up whether I care more about him lying and eating too much cake than I care about children having healthy parts of their bodies removed, because of an excessively liberal worldview that doesn’t seem to be able to balance the rights of the child with the rights of adults to express themselves.

At the end of the day I - and I voted Labour for nearly thirty years - will vote for people who choose to do something about childhood transition. That’s my red line.

@lakeswimmer you are right re rest of world but I thought we were talking about the U.K. and the Tory party in particular.

It's not about 'cake' FFS! This is what the Tories are saying to diminish it.
It's about him breaking the laws that he set (multiple times, so it wasn't just nine minutes) and lying about it in Parliament .
They're taking us for fools and laughing about it.
And the only person who has resigned over this is a woman.

@Floisme

For all that I think Labour are very very wrong with their stance on this, I do think they will get to the right place eventually. I think that's possible, but only if they don't get into power in the meantime.

I don't intend voting Tory (and I'm hoping there will be a half sensible independent candidate to save me from spoiling my vote) but I'm not going to criticise anyone who does. I think everyone has to make the best decision they can.

I was just about to post the same thing. I'm politically homeless so it's either an Independent or a spoiled ballot.

This is true but I put that down to ignorance and wanting to be seen to be doing the right thing ( misguidedly) Only really Mumsnet was sounding the alarm back in 2016 and journalists like Janice Turner. They have now put the brakes on hard as they can see the issues and back peddling at lightening speed. Labour too can see the issues but either don’t care or think they are unimportant. That’s the difference to me. And if labour can be taken in by gender identity ideology and embrace it despite the obvious harm to women and girls then I am not sure I think they are capable of deep thinking and looking at an issue in the round. And that worries me. They embraced an ideology that is obviously (to me) harmful.
They are on the “wrong side of history” on this

Fully agree. It’s naivety. I mean how many of us were in a ‘be kind’ position before we scratched the surface and pulled the curtain back. I think that’s EXACTLY where Teresa May was. She thought she was being empathetic. Now at least Boris has read the Sex Matters marketing - his little interview on it last week was really genius. If you pull apart what he said. He started by emphasising his creds on LGB rights. Then he picked on the three most salient issues - safe spaces, sport, child safeguarding. Then he said sexuality and gender is different and it is too simplistic to sweep them under the same laws. I mean he nailed it. As somebody who works in marketing and PR it was a lesson in comms. By the way I am talking ONLY about this one speech before anyone piles on about him in general!

Labour look utterly thick in all this. Lisa Nandy ffs. About male rapists being allowed in prison. Has she got zero critical thinking. Thornberry. Lammy. Starmer. What they say is degrading to women and frankly stupid. How can Starmer say that anyone can be a woman and then want female safe spaces. I mean duuurrrrr. Does he lack critical thinking. Oh and that female Labour MP last week, what’s her name - who threw women’s sports under a bus. That’s why I can’t vote Labour. They are stupid.

@beguilingeyes Boris never wanted those rules. He never believed in them. He wanted a more liberal way but the pile on at the time was mental. So if anything he should have had more backbone then and not been so draconian. But isn’t hindsight a wonderful thing. I remember the shrill calls for schools to be closed immediately and that lockdown happened too late. It was deafening.

Sorry have you forgotten all the other shit he’s pulled just because you and he align on a very small bit of agenda? Are you a troll trying to make feminists look stupid? He broke the law several times while in the highest position that the law empowers. He is a racist, sexist, classist bigot who wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire. But because he did a nice sound bite that his market researchers told him might gain him some female votes (a voter group the tories are deficient it) you believe that he actually means it? And will give the tories your vote, while they remove all social support networks and hike taxes to line their mates pockets?

I agree OP. As a mother of a daughter affected directly, and because I deeply care about women's sex based rights, I have no other option. All the other parties are prepared to throw my child under the bus for the sake of inclusion and being kind. Where I live, my vote will be a piss in the ocean of Labour voters, but I dont have it in me not to stand up to this. At least I'd be able to tell her in years to come that I tried my best. My local MP (Labour) didnt even dignify me with a response when I wrote to her about the issue and my concerns about the conversion therapy ban proposals. I am working class and a life long labour voter, so it pains me terribly to even consider voting Tory, but it is the only option. I do hope however, that Rosie Duffield keeps her job, we need more like her in the Labour party.

Beware single issue politics. It's how we got in this hideous mess in the first place. Boris and his shower of shitbags doesn't give a monkeys about womens' rights, he'll say anything to fool people into voting for him - how have people not learned that yet?

Boris is doing great work on Ukraine too. People never give him credit for the good stuff. That annoys me too. It’s so biased. Criticism is fine but it should be balanced.
On covid it turns out we have performed averagely and in fact much better than many other European countries. Does that get mentioned? No it doesn’t and yet plenty were shouting we were worst in the world for much of 2020-2021. Vaccines also great and lifting covid restrictions in July 2021 I thought was exactly right.
If you hate a politician then you get blinded to the other stuff they do right as you refuse to see it. I don’t hate any politician, I think it’s an impossible job often.
People can vote however they want and for any reason they want. That’s democracy.

I've taken the decision that I can't vote in any way that supports this government. I get why people are single issue voters on this but I'm not. Having said that, I don't think there will be a Labour or coalition nect time, probably the time after that.

I think we've come a long way on this issue, in fact, and for me in the right direction. The Cass review has been a game changer. And having the sport issue put in the open.

In a choice between self-interested liars and inflexible ideologues the liars are better. Not a great choice, but I fear inflexibility in the face of evidence, especially in power.

I just hear major Labour figures sounding unhinged and comical on this issue, it's entirely tone-deaf but is not changing.

To me, that is scary, as it feels that in democracy politicians tend to not sound unhinged, unless they are on the extremes.

That is a sign of ideological capture of the party, and it is dangerous. I have no idea what kind of niche ideology they may be captured by next, how can I vote Labour?

It’s Orwellian and scary what’s coming from politicians’ mouth. What a state.

I thought about this, this morning with the government's extremely expensive horrific new immigration plans.

Taking male illegal immigrants out of the country helps maintain the safety of women and girls.

Haven’t decided yet. I think Boris is working very hard to convince the media that it the choice is him or unpopular Labour policies. But the vote-winning combination would be Conservative policies with a different leader and a different Cabinet.

I won’t vote for any party that is going to being in self ID for transwomen. I don’t think I can vote for Boris either: I don’t just dislike him, I hate him. So I live in hope that either the Conservatives can produce a new leader before the next election ir Labour changes its more extreme policies. Otherwise I guess I’ll be voting for some random independent candidate.

@Neverreturntoathread

Haven’t decided yet. I think Boris is working very hard to convince the media that it the choice is him or unpopular Labour policies. But the vote-winning combination would be Conservative policies with a different leader and a different Cabinet.

I won’t vote for any party that is going to being in self ID for transwomen. I don’t think I can vote for Boris either: I don’t just dislike him, I hate him. So I live in hope that either the Conservatives can produce a new leader before the next election ir Labour changes its more extreme policies. Otherwise I guess I’ll be voting for some random independent candidate.

Gosh, that's very strong personal antipathy, would you possibly explain why, if you have the time?

He is such a liar. I don't trust a word out of his mouth, even though I wholeheartedly agree with his statement on biology etc. He says whatever will make him popular. Until they make a legally binding law and enforce it, it is just hot air.

I would never vote Tory, but I can't bring myself to vote for Labour at the moment and not just on the self id issue.

I hate Johnson too LK so I'll answer. He's a lazy, lying, immoral, corrupt piece of shit. He cares about money, shagging and being accepted by posh rich people. Full stop. He is careless with real women's lives.

@LK1972

In a choice between self-interested liars and inflexible ideologues the liars are better. Not a great choice, but I fear inflexibility in the face of evidence, especially in power.

This is excellent as a summary. I'd rather the self-interested arseholes that'll smell the wind changing than smug zealots steering grimly towards the rocks.

[quote Alcoh]@beguilingeyes Boris never wanted those rules. He never believed in them. He wanted a more liberal way but the pile on at the time was mental. So if anything he should have had more backbone then and not been so draconian. But isn’t hindsight a wonderful thing. I remember the shrill calls for schools to be closed immediately and that lockdown happened too late. It was deafening.[/quote]
Yes. I agree with this. Boris is seemingly a weather vane that blows wherever majority public opinion seems to be going. I'd be hard pressed to say at this point what his own deeply held convictions are about anything - if he even has any?

Many of the rules were unworkable and illogical (fined for sitting on park benches?), he knew they were illogical as did many MPs, which is in part why some broke them. That and of course the tendency for people in power to believe they sit above the electorate they serve.

There is an argument to be had that weathervanes are exactly what MPs should be - they do work for us, the public, after all. As a country we seem to like principled politicians though, except we can't seem to reach a consensus on what those principles should be!

The trouble is that Johnson has got rid of anyone even a little bit moderate/sensible (Clarke/Stewart) and surrounded himself with incompetent morons who don't know where Dover is and don't know how Channel 4 is funded while wanting to destroy it.
And while he may talk the talk on women's rights... remember this is the guy who said that prosecuting historic sex abuse was 'spaffing money up the wall'
He's been sacked twice for lying.

It’s all very well wanting politicians with deeply held principles as long as those principles align with yours. What if they don’t? Give me pragmatism and “reading the room” over ideology in a politician any day.
I am not a fan of “deeply held principles” generally as I think they make you blind to alternative viewpoints and changing situations and are a sign of lightweight thinking.

To me this slow move towards eroding women’s rights and denial of biology has more a weathervane feel in that it’s a blatant untruth stated because politicians feel they should. Whether they believe in that lie or not.

@LK1972

In a choice between self-interested liars and inflexible ideologues the liars are better. Not a great choice, but I fear inflexibility in the face of evidence, especially in power.

This is how I feel but much better expressed.

This whole thread is just playing into the hands of people like that idiot Ann Coates on Twitter who posts a thread every day about how awful and genocidal we all are.

BJ is no friend of women, despite what he recently said. The austerity policies that have left millions in poverty have disproportionately affected women. He has no interest in protecting women and will just do what is best for his career. In his personal life, he also seems like a giant misogynist so no thank you.