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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

My feminist best friend, a biology teacher, said trans men are women

53 replies

bluebellsandcustard · 08/04/2022 21:27

Had a conversation a few weeks ago around feminism and womens rights and my friend, an A level Biology teacher, said categorically that trans men WERE women.

I was so shocked and upset I didn't feel like arguing, but what can I say as we'll almost certainly have the conversation again. We both have daughters and we were talking about the Girl Guiding trans leader.

OP posts:
BattyOrange · 08/04/2022 23:18

= obvs.
(Wish there was an edit facility here sometimes.... Grin)

Eightiesfan · 09/04/2022 00:14

@HipTightOnions

You will be looking for a needle in the proverbial haystack to find any teacher who would disagree with the mantra of TWAW.

Not true. We do exist, but many aren't able to speak out at work.

I guess this is true, we have a prominent LGBT+ student group, in our school well not so much LGB if I am being totally honest. The school will often put the needs and wants of this small group of students who are all intelligent, sometimes misinformed but who seem to carry a lot of power. The fear of being labelled transphobic stops any sort of discussion or debate. Being pro-women is now apparently anti-trans.

We have students with diagnosed gender dysphoria, some who self-identify as female and others who for all intents and purposes are gay, but describe themselves as genderqueer and use she/they pronouns. It’s confusing for me as an adult, but I do feel that a lot of students who are struggling with their sexuality find comfort and solidarity in the trans movement. But it seems to be all or nothing, there is no balance, I can’t help but feel that it is only a matter of time before this all implodes.

GibbonsGoatsGibbons · 09/04/2022 00:27

Ask her if it's possible for a transwoman & a man to reproduce- if not why not.

TracyMosby · 09/04/2022 00:33

I work with an A-Level biology teacher who is also of this mindset. Makes me wonder how the students still pass the exam… Hmm

PrincessNutella · 09/04/2022 00:35

These people. I seriously wonder how they live with themselves when they say these stupid things. I would like to know when the magic happens. What is that moment when the obviously male person turns into a female. When a man like Bruce Jenner who was perfectly happy to get married and have children as a man decides to become a woman. Was he a man or was he a woman then? What are the rules. It's always heads I win tails you lose with these people. There's no consistency, it's always "Oh you mean terfs, how dare you ask, what about their jourrrrrneeeeey." None of it makes one bit of sense.

MangyInseam · 09/04/2022 00:48

I think you'd have to ask your friend what she means by "woman".

She might be thinking of it as a social category rather than a reproductive category.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 09/04/2022 00:54

If woman is an identity project then anyone can be a women but in that case, many of the people who we currently consider to be women (myself included) are not women anyone.

If woman is an identity project, therefore, we have to wonder how we will describe the art of mating as it can't be between a woman and a man as women are not women and I guess men are not men.

So how will she teach reproduction without using the words 'woman' or 'man'? I guess she might use the words female and male? Though TRAs are trying to commandeer those too for their own aims.

Makes me wonder what the point of the word 'woman' is in that case though. Doesn't seem very useful tbh if it does not describe a group of people whom others could identify, or who have any identifiable commonalities.

ISpyCobraKai · 09/04/2022 00:57

@PrincessNutella

These people. I seriously wonder how they live with themselves when they say these stupid things. I would like to know when the magic happens. What is that moment when the obviously male person turns into a female. When a man like Bruce Jenner who was perfectly happy to get married and have children as a man decides to become a woman. Was he a man or was he a woman then? What are the rules. It's always heads I win tails you lose with these people. There's no consistency, it's always "Oh you mean terfs, how dare you ask, what about their jourrrrrneeeeey." None of it makes one bit of sense.
I asked someone that recently about Lia Thomas. What happened to make Will Thomas, the man, into Lia Thomas, the woman. She wouldn't answer as I wasn't asking in good faith. I say nothing happened other than a name change.
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 09/04/2022 01:00

Does 'not asking in good faith' actually mean 'I don't like you facing me with the massive holes in my argument'?

Childrenofthestones · 09/04/2022 01:02

@HipTightOnions

You will be looking for a needle in the proverbial haystack to find any teacher who would disagree with the mantra of TWAW.

Not true. We do exist, but many aren't able to speak out at work.

Does it ever cross your mind how what you have been going through for the last five years is s modern take on McCarthyism.

"Do you now, or have you ever, held gender critical opinions, yes or no?"

Show the wrong opinions and you're down the memory hole.

Squiff70 · 09/04/2022 01:03

Hmm, very interesting opinions on this thread!

I have never posted anything on trans topics before so I realise I might be taking my life in my hands for sharing an opinion here, BUT I agree with the PP who asked at what point a trans woman becomes a woman (or I presume a trans man becomes a man). Is it when they decide they are the opposite gender from the one they were born into? After hormone treatment? After surgery? After 'acceptance' from others? I'm sorry if that was very un-PC but I'm not familiar with the etiquette surrounding this.

My theory is this (by the way, I'm not anti-trans as such. I just struggle to get my head around it). I don't understand how a person can decide to be something they're biologically not.

Take dwarfism as an example (hear me out here). It's something some people are born with. You either have dwarfism or you don't. If you are born without dwarfism, you cannot decide to become a person with dwarfism. Why is it so different for sex?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 09/04/2022 01:11

@Squiff70

Can I just pick up on what you said about not being 'anti-trans'? That's a term which is used as a weapon by the TRA. Almost all GC people are not 'anti-trans'. They are anti saying that people change sex, that calling oneself trans entitles you to access to spaces protected for the opposite sex, anti changing language in a way which means that people who don't know they have a cervix get poorer healthcare, anti locking a man in a cell with a woman etc. None of this is anti-trans in any way. TRAs say it is as they know that most people don't want to be unkind so they try and use that tendency against people by obfuscating away from the facts of the situation into emotive manipulation.

ISpyCobraKai · 09/04/2022 01:19

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Does 'not asking in good faith' actually mean 'I don't like you facing me with the massive holes in my argument'?
I'd say that's exactly what it means. After all, they were trying to tell me I was wrong, so why not just answer?
twilightcustard · 09/04/2022 02:11

@GibbonsGoatsGibbons Ask her if it's possible for a transwoman & a man to reproduce- if not why not.

I love your comment. Says it all succinctly for this specific scenario.

IstayedForTheFeminism · 09/04/2022 02:15

[quote twilightcustard]**@GibbonsGoatsGibbons* Ask her if it's possible for a transwoman & a man to reproduce- if not why not.*

I love your comment. Says it all succinctly for this specific scenario.[/quote]
If she's anything like my friend she'll claim this isn't relevant as not all women can reproduce either Hmm

ISpyCobraKai · 09/04/2022 02:44

Or some argument to do with "hermaphrodites" not my word, to be clearHmm
Then you ask them if they mean people with DSDs and they disappear/call you a TERF/bigoted etc.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/04/2022 03:28

I imagine that what she means when she says "transwomen are women" is "male transitioners (who have made sufficient effort that I can tell that they do not wish to be perceived as male) should be treated the same way we treat biological female humans and counted as women".

She doesn't mean "male transitioners are female".

But confirm it. If it comes up again, ask her, "is that a literal are, as in "lions are a type of big cat" or a metaphorical are, as in "Henry Tudor and his soldiers are lions in battle^?

Sunnytwobridges · 09/04/2022 03:41

I think some people have to be politically correct in certain situations.

Someone started a discussion about this at work and altho I don’t agree at all I had to act as if I did. And i have to play along around certain friends and family as well especially the ones that have strong feelings about it.

M0nica44 · 09/04/2022 04:03

@Sunnytwobridges

I think some people have to be politically correct in certain situations.

Someone started a discussion about this at work and altho I don’t agree at all I had to act as if I did. And i have to play along around certain friends and family as well especially the ones that have strong feelings about it.

Sadly this. It would be unwise of me to express my true feelings re trans at work... Yet another subject when it's best to pull a neutral expression and not speak out. This does bother me more and more though... But you know rent and bills...
musicalfrog · 09/04/2022 04:07

I'd be interested to know what the text books she uses in class say.

Have they been re-written?

Fucket · 09/04/2022 05:38

I know a few science teachers who believe sex is a spectrum. They also run the LGBTQ+ society. One provides pastoral support to a yr7 NB child.

Science teachers though are not all real scientists. Most have a few science ALevels and perhaps a degree but could be anything BSc(Hons). A lot of them are very young because there is a very high turnover of science teachers, they get into teaching straight from university. Unless teaching is your calling in life you’re off to do better things within a few years. So you have a lot of teachers with no life experience outside of education teaching young impressionable minds. It’s not ideal.

Sushi7 · 09/04/2022 07:50

@Sunnytwobridges

I think some people have to be politically correct in certain situations.

Someone started a discussion about this at work and altho I don’t agree at all I had to act as if I did. And i have to play along around certain friends and family as well especially the ones that have strong feelings about it.

Why lie? Either express your true views or stay quiet and either say “I don’t know much about this topic” or leave.

@bluebellsandcustard ask your friend about how she would determine the sex of a mammal (rather than just human). Also which member of the species has the ability to get pregnant and give birth. She will have to use the terms male, female and their respective sexual organs.

FedUpWithBriiiiick · 09/04/2022 08:02

If she's anything like my friend she'll claim this isn't relevant as not all women can reproduce either

Ive thought about how I would respond to this so called "counter argument", and I think I would say that I was referring to capacity, not capability.

All women have the capacity to reproduce, if not the capability.

Probably not using the terminology right, but it works for me.

beattieedny · 09/04/2022 08:04

Scientists are as prone to cultural norms and pressure as the rest of us. Also, as a teacher, we are mainly flipping idiots, so I'd take that into account too.

Musomama1 · 09/04/2022 08:37

Sorry I've written it before recently but this is why we need a language roll back.

It would be much harder for your friend to say a 'transsexual man is a woman'.

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