Helen Joyce "we should stop saying 'trans'"

[ChopinBoard]

Helen Joyce is on absolutely top form, and seems to have zero shits left to give:

"We should stop saying 'trans', we should start saying 'male'".

I'm inclined to agree: our position is much easier to understand if we stop using language which obfuscates the problem.

Buy her book Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality, if you haven't already

No one here thinks these male people should be victimised or abused for their self expression and beliefs.

Looking at the new guidance from the EHRC - I believe it makes it possible to keep males out of female-only spaces. Whether or not they say they are 'trans' is irrelevant. What they might be wearing is irrelevant. Their sex however is relevant.

Indeed, which is why TRAs always try to twist it to "you want to exclude trans people from using facilities and services, that's transphobic". No. We want to maintain some necessary services and facilities for women and girls only, when appropriate.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No one here thinks these male people should be victimised or abused for their self expression and beliefs.

Absolutely.

And the vast majority of the time, the male people who are fearful, are fearful of other males.

When are males going to do some of the heavy lifting here?

the male people who are fearful, are fearful of other males.

When are males going to do some of the heavy lifting here?

When is Society going to expect men to step up and say, There's no problem. You're welcome to broaden the bandwidth of what it means to be a man. I will cheer you on as a fellow man when you appear in a sports event or on a podium. I will pay as much attention to you in public loos as I would to any other man using the facilities. I will continue to give all of my co-workers parity of esteem and respect. This is for us men to sort.

As a woman working in a male dominated industry, I'm horrified at the idea anyone needs to or can 'identify' as the opposite sex.
Thirty years ago, would this have meant I had a short hair cut, wore trousers all the time in order to do my job? I wanted to work in engineering, not be a man.
The barriers were being torn down so we, male and female, could weld like the woman on flash dance, wear a dress like Bowie.
I see the trans desire for 'identity' as identifying with a stereotype worldview we were moving away from. It's very limiting and dangerous to start to place restrictions on gender identity. Eg. Eyeliner is a girl thing. Welding is a boy thing. After all, not all males want to weld.
The whole thing is a mess and makes me sad to see the next gen thinking in more narrow stereotypes.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

the male people who are fearful, are fearful of other males.

When are males going to do some of the heavy lifting here?

When is Society going to expect men to step up and say, There's no problem. You're welcome to broaden the bandwidth of what it means to be a man. I will cheer you on as a fellow man when you appear in a sports event or on a podium. I will pay as much attention to you in public loos as I would to any other man using the facilities. I will continue to give all of my co-workers parity of esteem and respect. This is for us men to sort.

Yes men can make the effort

After the interview on PM last night, Evan Davies said that a lot of listeners found the debate confusing. I'm convinced this is because of the use of "trans women" and "trans men" to mean the opposite of what intuition and logic would tell you they mean. And of course that's deliberate. A "trans woman" just sounds like a particular category of women, like a disabled woman, or an Asian woman, or a gay woman.

If we used language that indicated that they are, in fact, a particular category of men, then that would both clear up the linguistic confusion and make it easier to understand whether this group of people should have access to women's spaces and sports.

I have no aversion to any words but always select ones that describe the situation best - "man to race in women's cycling" hits home to the problem more than "transwomen in women's cycling". It describes the situation more distinctly as in that context not.

@Artichokeleaves

The terms 'male' and 'female' are not derogatory or insulting in any way, any more than the terms 'horse' or 'stairs' or 'tree', they are just statements of fact.

A male person may choose a range of definitions for themselves, TW, man, NB being just some of them. They remain male.

To suggest it is hurtful and unkind to not pretend this is otherwise is ridiculous. Transwomen and female people are not one and the same thing. And this political agenda has forced female people to the discourtesy of having to be very plain about this because that agenda has no reciprocal respect or care or kindness in what it does to female rights and equality and accessibility in meeting its own ends.

This

I can't get past this idea that facts are somehow "mean"

I am obese-
to run up to me in the street & tell me I am fat would be mean but factual
telling me I am too big to fit in the rollercoaster is a fact & not mean
telling me I am too heavy to go on the seesaw is a fact & not mean
telling me I can't compete in a flyweight category is a fact & not mean
Etc

It describes the situation more distinctly as in that context not. everyone may even know what is meant by a transwomen - no don't when you say man

The barriers were being torn down so we, male and female, could weld like the woman on flash dance, wear a dress like Bowie.

I suspect we are a similar age, I too went into a male profession, it wasn't easy and I ended up moving to a related profession.

The acceptance of different styles in the 80s was only skin deep though (I realise the irony there), there was no real tolerance. Yes, we had Boy George, Mark Almond and his eyeliner, but at school it was not OK to be gay, we weren't allowed to wear trousers as uniform, no local boy would be seen wearing make up or a dress. Goths were often beaten up.

We tout the idea that men shoud be able to wear anything they want and still be male. Yet, there is a distinct lack of tolerance on Mumsnet of any man wearing traditionally female clothing, even if he identifies as male. I can remember an article being posted here about a guy that goes about his daily life wearing a skirt and heels. The comments from MN weren't kind.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Helen Joyce's position has firmed up so much even from when she initially published her book.

HJ is now echoing arguments on here from 2018 about this being a case of being pro-women and not anti anybody else.

It's certainly a journey for most women in this debate and most end up on the blunter side because you have to really to get your points across clearly and in a way people will listen. I remember first listening to Kellie Jay and thinking she was a bit harsh with how she discusses this (even though I agreed with her points) Now I totally get why that is and has to be

Quite, Gibbons

To run up to someone in the street shouting 'you're obese!' is obviously someone being a dick.

However if you're running a service with a weight or size limit for obvious reason, or you're a health professional who needs to talk plainly about risks and needs, it's bloody ridiculous to expect them to just work around facts that you may not like having to think about.

And if you're wanting to participate in something, in full knowledge that your weight will be a significant issue in that situation, and still want everyone to just not mention the facts you don't like? Now you're driving people to the discourtesy of having to speak frankly, and that was your choice. You have to take responsibility for it.

Men will never understand what living as a woman really is. They can never be us. If they are uncomfortable being male, that's something else, something for them to figure out. Something I have sympathy for. But our space is not theirs, our place on the podium is not theirs, and our language certainly shouldn't be theirs to take at will.

Womanhood is not a club you can gain entry to by deception or lies.

Very well said.

The thing that's frustrating is that a lot of middle of the road people, who are against men in women's prisons, sports teams etc. but who still cling to TWAW because #bekind, is that they don't seem to understand that TWAW is the foundation of all these other things that are happening.

This reality denial, whilst well-meaning, is the very thing that supports and sustains these other 'bad things'. They are not unrelated. Men in women's prisons, men on women only boards, men winning women's medals - this didn't just happen - TWAW has laid the foundation of perception manipulation. And then these things came after.

It's certainly a journey for most women in this debate and most end up on the blunter side because you have to really to get your points across clearly and in a way people will listen. I remember first listening to Kellie Jay and thinking she was a bit harsh with how she discusses this (even though I agreed with her points) Now I totally get why that is and has to be

I suspect I'm not at the stage of the journey yet. I've gone from full acceptance that people can be born in the wrong body and be kind, to anger (and incredulity) at what is happening to womens rights. But I struggle at being an outcast from the people who would normally be my tribe - the activists, the people campaigning for peace, for tolerance, basically left wingers. I can't get my head round being seen as a bigot.

'That's a man!'

Why yes, yes it is.

@DalarnaHorses That's totally normal, I felt (and still feel to some extent) the same way. I struggle with being seen as a bigot or a "phobe" of any kind but you have to push on through anyway because womens and girls rights are stake here. Those TRAs are relying on the us feeling that way and shutting up because of it.

But the cries of 'transphobe!' 'TERF!' 'Bigot!' are all designed to shut you up - the fear of being labelled as one or more of them is useful in preventing people from speaking the truth.

It appears that reality is transphobic and anyone who doesn't subscribe to gender ideology is a TERF and/or a bigot to some.

I've picked the side of reality and truth and if that means others (who appear to prefer to rely on belief and feelings) label me a bigot, so be it.

@DalarnaHorses

It's certainly a journey for most women in this debate and most end up on the blunter side because you have to really to get your points across clearly and in a way people will listen. I remember first listening to Kellie Jay and thinking she was a bit harsh with how she discusses this (even though I agreed with her points) Now I totally get why that is and has to be

I suspect I'm not at the stage of the journey yet. I've gone from full acceptance that people can be born in the wrong body and be kind, to anger (and incredulity) at what is happening to womens rights. But I struggle at being an outcast from the people who would normally be my tribe - the activists, the people campaigning for peace, for tolerance, basically left wingers. I can't get my head round being seen as a bigot.

I have every sympathy. I really do. I have that t shirt.

@DalarnaHorses I couldn't handle being the poster girl and moved sideways. I also hoped that after the poster stage for all minorities we'd move into tolerance, than acceptance then normality.
I feel totally blind sided by the move to greater stereotypes, rather than a shrug and it's normal.

I've heard recently two cases of teen girls adopting they/their pronouns because they don't feel like women. How did we manage to get to the point that being an amazing potentially baby growing, welding, engineering, caring multitasking female became something to reject.

As I've got older and my waist has inevitably filled out, I've had to accept that I will never be a supermodel or an Olympic athlete, particularly now my eyesight has gone. I also accept that I'm not invited to weddings when I don't know the people involved. I didn't get a seat at the Oscars, my life is full of disappointment or acceptance that not everything involves me. I also moved to the bloody countryside so it's hard to catch people on tour or get cheap last minute theatre tickets. Why won't society bend to my will!

@NancyDrawed

But the cries of 'transphobe!' 'TERF!' 'Bigot!' are all designed to shut you up - the fear of being labelled as one or more of them is useful in preventing people from speaking the truth.

It appears that reality is transphobic and anyone who doesn't subscribe to gender ideology is a TERF and/or a bigot to some.

I've picked the side of reality and truth and if that means others (who appear to prefer to rely on belief and feelings) label me a bigot, so be it.

Yep, it reeks of being a "Blasphemer" years ago

Not only is Trans a deliberate fudge, but the term frequently refers to people who haven't transitioned to anything.

Rebranded men works for me.