Helen Joyce "we should stop saying 'trans'"

[ChopinBoard]

Helen Joyce is on absolutely top form, and seems to have zero shits left to give:

"We should stop saying 'trans', we should start saying 'male'".

I'm inclined to agree: our position is much easier to understand if we stop using language which obfuscates the problem.

Buy her book Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality, if you haven't already

HJ wasn’t suggesting that we “ditch the trans” to call a transwoman a woman, but rather to call a transwoman a man, to focus on the biological reality.

I realise that, but by ditching trans, a transwomen would call themselves a woman, whilst we were calling them a man. I feel transwomen is the middle ground, we know who they are and we know they are not biological women. I would ultimately prefer the term transgender man though, as I think some people are confused by the term transwomen.
I guess I also struggle with insisting a transwoman must call themselves male (unless they are abusive, then sure definitely male). It feels deliberately inflammatory and unkind (yes I know the be kind arguments).

Apologies missed the quotes on my above post.

HJ wasn’t suggesting that we “ditch the trans” to call a transwoman a woman, but rather to call a transwoman a man, to focus on the biological reality.

I realise that, but by ditching trans, a transwomen would call themselves a woman, whilst we were calling them a man. I feel transwomen is the middle ground, we know who they are and we know they are not biological women. I would ultimately prefer the term transgender man though, as I think some people are confused by the term transwomen.
I guess I also struggle with insisting a transwoman must call themselves male (unless they are abusive, then sure definitely male). It feels deliberately inflammatory and unkind (yes I know the be kind arguments).

I don't think it's that difficult. Trans/ transwoman are generally ok in contexts where sex doesn't matter. But if the context is one of those where it does matter (sport, hospitals, prisons etc) then clarity is needed not obfuscation.

It feels deliberately inflammatory and unkind (yes I know the be kind arguments).

If there was any reciprocal kindness to female humans I might have more sympathy.

They have the freedom to call themselves whatever they want. Not everyone needs to go along with it.

I think calling people by their biological sex at birth is the most accurate description of their sex and gender - in my view it works both both ways neither male or female can take the other sex or gender.

I guess I also struggle with insisting a transwoman must call themselves male (unless they are abusive, then sure definitely male). It feels deliberately inflammatory and unkind (yes I know the be kind arguments).

I don't think HJ is suggesting that they must refer to themselves as male, though. I interpret what she as when we are talking about eg Lia Thomas, if we say 'male swimmer wins female race' it is very clear how unfair it is compared to 'Trans swimmer wins female race' or 'Transwoman swimmer wins female race'

'Trans' alone is almost completely devoid of meaning.
Isn't that the point? The average man/woman on the Clapham Omnibus doesn't understand the difference between transexual or transgender.
It is deliberate obfuscation.

I don't think HJ is suggesting that they must refer to themselves as male, though. I interpret what she as when we are talking about eg Lia Thomas, if we say 'male swimmer wins female race' it is very clear how unfair it is compared to 'Trans swimmer wins female race' or 'Transwoman swimmer wins female race'

I agree: HJ is being nuanced about context and how such events are reported.

I should add I presumed Helen was talking about how we conduct the debate rather than how speak to individuals.

I assumed the opposite, which is why I felt uncomfortable.

If there was any reciprocal kindness to female humans I might have more sympathy.

It's difficult squaring the people who have lived their lives as transgender for many years, not bothering anyone, with the baying mobs of TRAs, who have frankly ruined things for everyone.

The issue for me around safe spaces is their sexuality. If you are male bodied and sexually attracted to or aroused by women, then you should not be in female spaces. I think that's the aspect that should be focussed on more: years ago, I used to assume all transwomen were sexually attracted to men, sort of 'effeminate gay' taken a stage further, because that's what the high profile transwomen were when I was young, and I think many people still do.

It's difficult squaring the people who have lived their lives as transgender for many years, not bothering anyone, with the baying mobs of TRAs, who have frankly ruined things for everyone.

And requiring women to maintain that respect and consideration ties both hands behind them in being able to stand up against this almighty onslaught against women's rights. Which is how things have got this bad in the first place.

It's difficult squaring the people who have lived their lives as transgender for many years, not bothering anyone,

It's odd how many people say that and then, over time, recognise how very entitled some people have been and their own unthinking compliance with it.

Yes of course she's right! And now might be the time to start doing this.

But unfortunately using 'male' instead of 'trans' would have your comment deleted and your account suspended/removed from almost every online platform. It has taken this ridiculous compromise, under duress, to make the gains that GC has.

However, in academic settings 'male' instead of 'trans' is likely to to trigger some kind of discipline procedure. And I'm not even sure if it is legal in Scotland.

For a textbook example of what this looks like in practice, Chelsea Mitchell's piece about running in Connecticut is illustrative.

She originally wrote the piece entirely talking about competing against male runners. It was very clear. Too clear.

After publication, USA Today edited it to remove all references to "male", replacing with "transgender", with the message

Editor's note: This column has been updated to reflect USA TODAY’s standards and style guidelines. We regret that hurtful language was used.

The "hurtful language" being simply "male". The edited version changes the entire tone and affects the meaning of the piece. Also effectively smears her as being "anti trans" because it has her objecting to "transgender" competitors all the way through rather than male vs female unfairness.

Original text

Edited version

For example, this:

That’s because males have massive physical advantages. Their bodies are simply bigger and stronger on average than female bodies. It’s obvious to every single girl on the track.

Became:

Their bodies are simply bigger and stronger on average. It’s obvious to other girls on the track.

Which even changed what "their" was referring to - it became the "two transgender athletes".

She only seems to mean when talking about participation in sport.

Googlecanthelpme
If a transwoman lives their life as a woman in every capacity then I have no issue using transwoman
But what does 'live their life as a woman in every capacity' actually mean? Wearing a skirt, some lipstick? Baking a cake? Who gets to decide what living as a woman is?
I'm not trying to be goady, just to dig down into living as a woman, which seems to get thrown about a lot.

I don't live as a woman, just like I don't live as a human - I just am a human woman, so whatever way I live (and other women live) is how a human woman lives. Billions of women all over the world live completely different lives, the only thing that really aligns us all is our biology. Menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause. Women will experience some or all of those in their lives, but men never will.

I'm not trying to get at you, but it's frustrating to hear this kind of acquiescence to some sort of 'right way' of imitating a woman, and therefore being more authentic than the rest. The issue should not be whether a man can sufficiently 'pass' in public, this is about biological reality and the effect that it has on our lives and experiences. And the language that describes and shapes that reality.

Men will never understand what living as a woman really is. They can never be us. If they are uncomfortable being male, that's something else, something for them to figure out. Something I have sympathy for. But our space is not theirs, our place on the podium is not theirs, and our language certainly shouldn't be theirs to take at will.

Womanhood is not a club you can gain entry to by deception or lies.

Yes @SteakExpectations that's what I (apparently unsuccessfully) was trying to say

The terms 'male' and 'female' are not derogatory or insulting in any way, any more than the terms 'horse' or 'stairs' or 'tree', they are just statements of fact.

A male person may choose a range of definitions for themselves, TW, man, NB being just some of them. They remain male.

To suggest it is hurtful and unkind to not pretend this is otherwise is ridiculous. Transwomen and female people are not one and the same thing. And this political agenda has forced female people to the discourtesy of having to be very plain about this because that agenda has no reciprocal respect or care or kindness in what it does to female rights and equality and accessibility in meeting its own ends.

If a transwoman lives their life as a woman in every capacity then I have no issue using transwoman

Including sports? All Women Shortlists to rectify political and boardroom imbalances? Women's scholarships and prizes?

I agree 100% @Roseglen84 👏

I'm sorry my lack of detailed comment in my op caused some confusion, I posted quickly as I was getting ready for work. I see PPs have clarified brilliantly, thank you

It's not possible for a male person to "live their life as a woman".

It's odd how many people say that and then, over time, recognise how very entitled some people have been and their own unthinking compliance with it.

It's so difficult. I remember the guy who lived on the corner of our estate when I was growing up. He dressed as a woman all the time, he was largely ignored by adults, but some of the kids would call him names and put dog shit through his letterbox.

None of that was OK. But putting men on women's wards, in rape refuges, in women's sports...that's appalling too. It's such a mess. I just feel there should be a third space, yet I know TRAs won't accept that.

I've thought for a long time that 'trans' is a word best avoided.

Looking at the new guidance from the EHRC - I believe it makes it possible to keep males out of female-only spaces. Whether or not they say they are 'trans' is irrelevant. What they might be wearing is irrelevant. Their sex however is relevant.

We need to focus on sex. Sex sex sex. More sex please, we're British.