R4 PM

[Igmum]

Damian Green has just been balanced and sensible about trans rights on R4's PM programme (about 40 minutes in). Is more sense seeping through?

In this instance, though, it sounds like the obvious silliness of ED’s position was made very clear, so a win for GC views vs biased questioning.

I actually think that highly intelligent people find it easier to believe nonsense than the less intelligent. I think there is some research supporting this. E.g. academics are used the bending their minds around difficult subjects so they can bend their minds to things that make no sense

I dunno - I think it might be a dreadful combination of imposter and emperor's new clothes syndromes combined with status display. If the intelligentsia isn't really intelligent they have to jump on any trendy (or not so trendy), niche or obscure bandwagon going to give the illusion of being at the cutting edge of current thinking. It's why some academics love Butler; objectively her writing is a load of turgid nonsense but because few people have read it and she uses long words it can look impressive at first glance so if the individual academic promotes it to students as if they have a genuine deep understanding while knowing the students will struggle, it merely serves to reinforce their own status as perceived elite.

@LittleBearPad

Evan is a berk and certainly won’t give a monkey’s about women at least unless they were born male…

I believe the theory is that women who were born men are the best sort of women.

Whilst simultaneously being the most vulnerable.

Just in case Evan should stray here to see what women are saying.

The reason people get behind trans is because of the association with LGB and the prior struggles for recognition. Which were a bad thing.

T has no connection with LGB, unless it is a sexual orientation. If it IS a sexual orientation, and many trans women want to date women, and males are stronger than women, and male sexuality is a strong strong urge. Then maybe he could TRY to recognise the problem from a woman's viewpoint.

He could also TRY to recognise that giving life changing drugs and surgeries and socially transitioning young people ahead of counselling is indeed a bad idea.

He has a blind spot on this, so he needs a mirror. If he would use one I would respect that he has at least tried to engage with the issues from another perspective. If he so obviously doesn't try, he doesn't deserve the power he holds to influence opinion in the way he does.

ED: But I think there would be people in your party who would say that going as far as you do in saying a transwoman is not biologically a woman and biology is real and therefore a transwoman isn’t a woman, they’re a transwoman, and that’s a different category to someone assigned female at birth. By going that far you are really putting a very very large wedge between you and the trans community

Just wondering idly here what sort of woman ED would choose if he wanted a surrogate mother? If there is no difference between women and transwomen, then presumably either would do. Or does biology matter?

(Not that I approve of surrogacy - but just saying.)

@FromOurHatsToOurFeet

I’m fascinated by your question. You’ve said that I’ve asserted that biology is real as though that’s something controversial. I think once we start saying that scientific facts are not real then, then we really are in a difficult phase which I don’t think, as it happens, helps transwomen or transmen either.

Imagine being the presenter of PM and being shown up by Damian Green, of all people.

Glorious, wasn't it?

Plus the shade thrown at Labour; we don't need to push anything when they're making themselves look this stupid

Thanks for transcribing pombear excellent job. I would love to know what the pushback from the listeners / public at large is. The emperor is certainly being exposed in all his (sic) glory.

I spent some time recently with some Conservative friends who have stopped listening to Radio 4 as they are sick of all the TWAW & assigned at birth nonsense.

My mum is no conservative, but is a life-long R4 listener who won't listen to Women's Hour any more because of this. I've told her that Emma Barnett is pushing back on it but I don't think she'll go back to it. She's also one of those listeners who find (these arguements) very hard to follow (what Evan said) precisely because of the reliance on unclear language, and unclear concepts doing a lot of heavy lifting, and therefore prefers to switch off rather than get her head round it all. She's a retired teacher fgs. How many people across the country are like her, just not understanding, because journalists like Evan Davis say such ridiculous things in such an important, serious, R4 voice?

And I also thought that ED sounded a bit nervous and flustered, and that his astonishment at DG's acknowledgement of reality was genuine - which will hopefully have made a lot of people prick up their ears.

I reckon there are loads of people who accept ‘TWAW’ because it’s an audacious claim they don’t understand issued by clever-sounding people with cut-glass accents who have degrees and careers. If actual doctors/surgeons/teachers/lawyers say it, shouldn’t we believe it?

But people with degrees have talked a lot of shit over the years.

I think the previous poster who made the point about very intelligent people being able to make a case for almost anything is correct.

But once you boil it down to, would a straight male find a transwoman (no surgery, no hormones) sexually attractive? or would a gay couple be able to use a transwoman as a surrogate? or would a transwoman with a penis be physically able to rape a vulnerable woman, you can't get can't over the fact that transwomen are not biologically woman.

A busy day of news and on PM Evan Davis wasn't able to get around to discussing the further developments in this story today. Maybe he realised that sneering at what Boris Johnson had said would have been rather startling to a decent amount of the audience.

nauticant I was waiting and waiting and then thought he must have done it early doors before I turned it on. Perhaps whoever it is on Friday will cover it?

Maybe I zoned out at the critical moment but I don't think it was covered in today's programme.

I've long held the view that on this issue Davis is biased in favour of gender identity ideology but yesterday, when he was being so incredulous at Damian Green's statements of material reality, I realised that his support for the ideology is such that he will try to undermine a guest saying something, not because it's wrong, but because, ideologically, it is heretical. Such a person shouldn't be leading a new programme on the BBC. In fact, they really ought to leave altogether to pursue their activism.

Nauticant

I've long held the view that on this issue Davis is biased in favour of gender identity ideology but yesterday, when he was being so incredulous at Damian Green's statements of material reality, I realised that his support for the ideology is such that he will try to undermine a guest saying something, not because it's wrong, but because, ideologically, it is heretical

This is where a transcript doesn't do justice to the tone of the question. The tone of Evan's question below was indeed so incredulous, that how could Damian Green even dare to be so heretical in the face of the 'transwomen are women' incantation.

ED: But In a way, what you’ve just said is that a transwoman isn’t a woman. And that isn’t the position, is it? You’re not really saying a transwoman isn’t a woman, or are you saying that?

I can only relate it to someone of a Christian faith expressing shock at someone who doesn't believe in Christianity: Evan effectively saying 'you're not really saying God isn't real, are you' Or are you saying that'? with the same incredulity of tone.

@pombear or a child finding out Santa isn’t real.

[quote Crcohetmonster]@pombear or a child finding out Santa isn’t real.[/quote]
yes, though my child was 11 when that conversation happened (later than I expected, though a bright child who's now a competent adult!).

I'd like to grant Evan Davies with a little more maturity of thought, but given his shock at Daman Green revealing 'santa isn't real' (ie men can't be women) I'm not sure I can grant him that respect right now!