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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

R4 PM

117 replies

Igmum · 05/04/2022 17:49

Damian Green has just been balanced and sensible about trans rights on R4's PM programme (about 40 minutes in). Is more sense seeping through?

OP posts:
AsTreesWalking · 05/04/2022 20:16

Wow. Sanity on Radio 4.
And to think this is just what I got into hot water for saying at school....
(I opened the can...)

tabbycatstripy · 05/04/2022 20:18

What happened @AsTreesWalking?

borntobequiet · 05/04/2022 20:27

@FromOurHatsToOurFeet

I’m fascinated by your question. You’ve said that I’ve asserted that biology is real as though that’s something controversial. I think once we start saying that scientific facts are not real then, then we really are in a difficult phase which I don’t think, as it happens, helps transwomen or transmen either.

Imagine being the presenter of PM and being shown up by Damian Green, of all people.

Absolutely.
MamaSaidTheredBeDaysLikeThis · 05/04/2022 20:28

Thank you pombear. really helpful. I think that’s the most clear I’ve heard an MP be (outside of the handful of female MPs who are tuned into this).

Fluffymule · 05/04/2022 20:28

@FromOurHatsToOurFeet

I’m fascinated by your question. You’ve said that I’ve asserted that biology is real as though that’s something controversial. I think once we start saying that scientific facts are not real then, then we really are in a difficult phase which I don’t think, as it happens, helps transwomen or transmen either.

Imagine being the presenter of PM and being shown up by Damian Green, of all people.

Whilst I would hope that Evan Davies would reflect on how ridiculous he makes himself sound during this interview I know he won't.

He is an embarrassing example of how low the impartiality of BBC journalism has sunk.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/04/2022 20:28

I’m fascinated by your question.

Is this a polite way of saying 'are you on glue?'?

pombear · 05/04/2022 20:32

Just coming back to this after transcribing.

So much to unpick:

a) How I wish for more left-leaning voices to have articulated the issue with the clarity that Damian Green has. A decade ago, I would have expected all of the following points he made to have been articulated by left-wing MPs, understanding the material reality of the female sex. We are in an Alice-in-Wonderland world.

b) eg DG's statement So, having a long cool look at this legislation is extremely sensible. My worry is why I make the distinction between teenagers and adults, if you like, is that I don’t want anyone to do anything irreversible to a child, essentially. Well, yes, this is a very sensible argument from any adult. Because the alternate argument is surely 'affirm the teenager in their gender identity, it doesn't matter if there is a physiological irreversible outcome from doing so^ Which doesn't seem sensible.

c) Evan Davies saying Can a woman have a mans bits? Have we reverted to embarrassment and prudishness on Radio 4, where we can't say 'penis' but 'man bits' will do? Or did Evan deliberately avoid saying penis, because that would alert listeners to what we're really talking about here - men, with penises, saying they're women?

d) Evan Davies saying a ban on carting off a teenager to a dodgy therapist who tries to stop them being themselves - what a throwaway dangerous comment, when the debate has clearly not been about that at all. Is Evan reading the serious discussion around therapy for children with gender identity issues? If he is, and is throwing these sorts of statements around, that's dangerous. If he's not, just an ignorant throwaway comment, with no regard to children's development of their sense of self.

d) Damian Green saying Conversion therapy can mean a number of things to different people and when you’re righting legislation you’ve got to be precise and so if you say that any questioning of a gender identity expressed by a teenager, particularly. I think there’s a huge difference between how you should treat children and adults in this

This is a considered, thoughtful statement , and mindful of the implication of legislation. Please, Labour MPs, can you speak with similar clarity and nuance?

e) Again, Damian Green saying: The puberty blockers and those sorts of drugs. Which, you know, at best cause permanent alteration and can cause permanent damage. I think doing that to children is abusive What a powerful statement, aligning to much of what is potentially going to come out of the Cass review.

f) Evan Davies: I think there would be people in your party who would say that going as far as you do in saying a transwoman is not biologically a woman and biology is real and therefore a transwoman isn’t a woman, they’re a transwoman, and that’s a different category to someone assigned female at birth.
Despite Evan's horror, this isn't much of a stretch for most people than he thinks.

g) Evan again: By going that far you are really putting a very very large wedge between you and the trans community that there isn’t going to be any reconciliation there What about the wedge between the trans activists and most women, Evan? Could you even imagine that wedge and why it's there?

h) Damian: And particularly things like women’s refuges where I’ve spoken to people who run women’s refuges and they say that some of the women who’ve had terrible experiences do not want biological males around the place, I think that attitude needs to be respected as well. Thank you Damian for recognising that women's needs should be respected

PigletJohn · 05/04/2022 20:35

thanks for the transcript

if you want to hear it

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00162v9

starts at 38:50

Artichokeleaves · 05/04/2022 20:37

Thank you for the transcript!

ED: But I think there would be people in your party who would say that going as far as you do in saying a transwoman is not biologically a woman and biology is real and therefore a transwoman isn’t a woman, they’re a transwoman, and that’s a different category to someone assigned female at birth. By going that far you are really putting a very very large wedge between you and the trans community

The alternative is putting an even larger wedge between you and the female population, which is 51% of the electorate.

Isn't this an equal problem if not a bigger one?

ED is making it very clear: the trans community are incompatible with women's rights. Its a choice. It's one or the other.

As for "going as far as you do in saying...biology is real" - what the actual fuck? This is a position of insanity.

pombear · 05/04/2022 20:40

Artichokeleaves
As for "going as far as you do in saying...biology is real" - what the actual fuck? This is a position of insanity

Aye, and Evan's tone of disbelief as to how 'far' Damian was going in stating this was evident of that insanity!

Artichokeleaves · 05/04/2022 20:42

Quite. The limit of identity based belief is other people's sex based rights.

pombear · 05/04/2022 20:42

Can you imagine a parallel universe, devoid of facts, where a Radio 4 news presenter was questioning an MP you;re going as far as you do in saying...the earth is round, not flat

This is where this ideology has led people. Denying reality and gasping at other people who'd quite like to reinstate reality.

tabbycatstripy · 05/04/2022 20:42

‘Evan Davies saying Can a woman have a mans bits? Have we reverted to embarrassment and prudishness on Radio 4, where we can't say 'penis' but 'man bits' will do? Or did Evan deliberately avoid saying penis, because that would alert listeners to what we're really talking about here - men, with penises, saying they're women?’

This is all about pretending it’s offensive to say ‘penis’. Because when we say ‘penis’ we are making the situation clear (people who haven’t had reassignment surgery claiming to be female).

FromOurHatsToOurFeet · 05/04/2022 20:50

www.spectator.co.uk/article/starmer-won-t-talk-about-sex-and-gender-that-s-a-problem

Perhaps James should write a version of this which is about Evan not Keir.

I feel a bit icky to have been cheering a Tory on this evening especially when it's Damian Green with his history. He's got a "Controversies" section on his Wiki page. Not just the one.

Melroses · 05/04/2022 20:55

And to think I used to be a great fan of Evan's Blush

pombear · 05/04/2022 20:56

FromOurHatsToOurFeet
I feel a bit icky to have been cheering a Tory on this evening especially when it's Damian Green with his history. He's got a "Controversies" section on his Wiki page. Not just the one

Same. But this is a cross-party issue. Like Caroline Ffiske said, once we sort this one out we can go back to our other disagreements.

We can't even begin to disagree or discuss other issues affecting women, and relevant political issues, when the definition of woman and the law protecting women and children is at risk.

LittleBearPad · 05/04/2022 20:57

Evan is a berk and certainly won’t give a monkey’s about women at least unless they were born male…

MarciaDidia · 05/04/2022 21:01

"ED: But I think there would be people in your party who would say that going as far as you do in saying a transwoman is not biologically a woman and biology is real and therefore a transwoman isn’t a woman, they’re a transwoman, and that’s a different category to someone assigned female at birth. By going that far you are really putting a very very large wedge between you and the trans community"

Precisely. By making and insisting on the claim that there is no difference between biological women and trans women, Stonewall and other trans activists have put a very very large wedge between themselves and women.

LittleBearPad · 05/04/2022 21:03

saying a transwoman is not biologically a woman They aren’t

and biology is real It is

It’s really not that radical

pombear · 05/04/2022 21:05

Listening to this, and assuming from Evan's past point of view, he subscribes whollly to the trans activists view of the world.

This was a shocker - Damian highlights the possible physical damage to young teenagers (who we know from statistics are overwhelmingly young girls right now)

And Evan brushes over his comments to ask if focusing on this 'does damage' to the Conservative Party's image?

How can you be a journalist and totally ignore potential physical harm to children, because you're so in thrall to the 'image' ?

DG: So medication, absolutely. The puberty blockers and those sorts of drugs. Which, you know, at best cause permanent alteration and can cause permanent damage. I think doing that to children is abusive.

ED: Does it matter to the Conservative party at this point, or to you as an MP, that a lot of years, really, of hard work of trying to kind of clean up the party’s image with some of the LGBT groups seems to have been lost in the last few days. We’ve had the LGBT business champion, Ian Anderson, stepping down today over this issue.

Artichokeleaves · 05/04/2022 21:08

We're at the point of 'do you want to be popular or do you want to be ethically responsible?'

I think JKR had this years ago. 'When it's a choice between doing what is easy and what is right....'

Crcohetmonster · 05/04/2022 21:08

@ErrolTheDragon

I’m fascinated by your question.

Is this a polite way of saying 'are you on glue?'?

I am stealing this!! I usually use ‘ that’s an interesting perspective’ when I think someone is being particularly batshit crazy,
Outwith · 05/04/2022 21:10

😄 at ED referring to non-trans people. Bloody hell.

LittleBearPad · 05/04/2022 21:12

@Outwith

😄 at ED referring to non-trans people. Bloody hell.
Extraordinary when the vast majority is defined by not being the tiny minority
Crcohetmonster · 05/04/2022 21:14

I refer to Evan as a non sane person then

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