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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans woman selected for Womens football squad

97 replies

HermioneKipper · 01/04/2022 11:49

TW - a male - selected for England Universities Sport Women's Squad. Depriving a woman of a spot.

mobile.twitter.com/HastingsUFCW/status/1509175209118638093

Womens sport is being destroyed before our eyes. I am so angry but I don’t know what I can do.

It’s utterly depressing

OP posts:
BigWoollyJumpers · 01/04/2022 17:03

Quite the contrary. Blair's main research interest is transgender sport, specifically the affects of testosterone on performance

I must admit I only skim read, however, I understood (perhaps incorrectly), that the focus is on the effect of reduced testosterone on performance, in trans athletes, not the effect of that hormone in giving the post pubescent male an advantage in the first place.

It also royally pisses me off that reducing the testosterone limit to 5, is still way above the average level for women which is 2.

NeinDanke · 01/04/2022 17:07

mobile.twitter.com/BlairH_PhD

Dinosauria · 01/04/2022 17:15

The problem is TW won't want to play with and against other TW, as then they will be back to being average men.

So even if we let them have 'women's sports' and set up a new level of biological women's sports, for women, they would want to participate in that.

Truthlikeness · 01/04/2022 17:29

[quote Skyellaskerry]@Truthlikeness
Where's the acknowledgment in any of this that the womens and mens games are played differently. The guidance includes mention about footballers coming in all shapes and sizes, true enough, but right now watching a game played by a team of women or a team of men, of all shapes and sizes within each single-sex team, is still different. Curious also as to what your fellow footballers think.[/quote]
That's where it gets interesting/infuriating. When asked, many women will say 'of course we're happy to include transwomen' because they've been conditioned to be kind and 'inclusive' and they have no idea of the reality of playing competitively against men. The others stay quiet, I'm guessing in many cases because they don't want to be seen as transphobic. No-one had yet spoken up publicly against it in my team, but I am willing to do so, and I suspect it will happen sooner rather than later.
At the moment I play in a very low level league not directly managed by the FA. We were consulted on including transwomen and I sent a detailed response to why we shouldn't support that. I haven't heard what the results are, but haven't encountered any transwomen in that league yet.

I have however started to see male-born people playing in women's teams in the other leagues. They stick out like a sore thumb. My heart sinks every time I see it. A lot of the press focuses on elite sport, but this is happening already (and has been for some time) at grass roots level, which is still enormously important for those of us who have dedicated countless hours to the sport we love, and trying to get other women playing it in the first place.

HermioneKipper · 01/04/2022 17:33

@BigWoollyJumpers

Quite the contrary. Blair's main research interest is transgender sport, specifically the affects of testosterone on performance

I must admit I only skim read, however, I understood (perhaps incorrectly), that the focus is on the effect of reduced testosterone on performance, in trans athletes, not the effect of that hormone in giving the post pubescent male an advantage in the first place.

It also royally pisses me off that reducing the testosterone limit to 5, is still way above the average level for women which is 2.

Absolutely. And a woman with that level of testosterone would be banned for doping
OP posts:
zanahoria · 01/04/2022 17:36

, specifically the affects of testosterone on performance

Has Blair researched whether reduced testosterone makes keepers shorter?

zanahoria · 01/04/2022 17:38

^Jaiyah Saelua is a footballer first.

The first openly transgender woman and fa’afafine to compete in a Fifa World Cup qualifying match for men, she has become a global champion for the rights of transgender and fa’afafine athletes^

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/footballs-first-faafafine-trans-rights-trailblazer-jaiyah-saelua-on-stardom-and-sisterhood

Now that is how to do it

334bu · 01/04/2022 17:47

Has Blair researched whether reduced testosterone makes keepers

Wonder if research shows reduced testosterone makes men less able to jump so much higher than women?

rc.library.uta.edu/uta-ir/handle/10106/24194#:~:text=CONCLUSION%3A%20The%20main%20results%20showed,greater%20force%20and%20power%20production.

Signalbox · 01/04/2022 17:54

@zanahoria

^Jaiyah Saelua is a footballer first.

The first openly transgender woman and fa’afafine to compete in a Fifa World Cup qualifying match for men, she has become a global champion for the rights of transgender and fa’afafine athletes^

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/footballs-first-faafafine-trans-rights-trailblazer-jaiyah-saelua-on-stardom-and-sisterhood

Now that is how to do it

It’s a shame that the transwomen athletes who compete with men are not celebrated more. There’s a transwomen MMA fighter (Anne Veriato) who fights men.

”It’s only fair to fight men,” Veriato said. “It never crossed my mind to fight a woman because I think I’m too good. If I beat men my entire career, I can still beat them despite the hormone process. I only know that I’m good after I beat men. That’s what makes me happy and hungrier to train. I don’t think it’s fair to fight women.”

www.mmafighting.com/platform/amp/2018/3/11/17106086/transgender-woman-anne-veriato-defeats-man-mma-fight-brazil

Swayingpalmtrees · 01/04/2022 18:01

If only we lived in a world where everyone was as decent as Jaiyah Saelua, setting the bar right up there - and a shining example to all.

Cailleach1 · 01/04/2022 18:11

@MyLittlePhonyPony

But again, you are assuming all the women on the team think it's unfair.

We know in Kent cricket Maxine's the ex males team member team mates are happy for Maxine to play with them against biological female opponents .

Football is a contact sport. It is not fair in cricket, but it could result in physical injury in contact sports. Mind you, the women on the same team might not care if the opposing women are put in danger by the presence of this person.
Swayingpalmtrees · 01/04/2022 18:20

The issues are not confined to the field either, what about the changing rooms etc?

msbevvy · 01/04/2022 18:27

@Molamola

HU Women have a fantastic goals against record. Wonder how they've managed that? Clue - Hamilton has started 22 out of a possible 23 games this season.
I have been to several matches this season and you mustn't underestimate the skill of the women in the Hastings team. It has been noticeable that the goalie often hasn't had much to do.

But one thing that I have observed is that when there is a goal kick it travels an amazingly long way compared with similar kicks by the opposing goalie. There must be an advantage there.

Skyellaskerry · 01/04/2022 19:00

@Truthlikeness thanks very much for your reply and I wish you well in speaking out. It would be very sad if girls were put off starting to play the game, it having come such a long way in terms of participation by girls and women and rightly being a great sport to watch in its own right, and I'm sure to play. I would have loved to have had the chance to play but it just wasn't available when I was young unfortunately!

CatProcrastinator1 · 01/04/2022 19:06

@Truthlikeness, if you are thinking about speaking out, perhaps you could contact Fair Play for Women. I appreciate that you are not in an FA controlled league. I am nothing to do with the the admin of FPFW, but they are very knowledgeable.

The length of the goal kick must confer a huge advantage.

334bu · 01/04/2022 19:07

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967432/

Blair' s fantastic kicking power might not just be down to all that hard work Hmm

Humbold · 01/04/2022 19:17

It feels like there is a very concerted 'testing of the waters' or pushing of the boundaries going on in sport at the moment. This goalie is obviously very much invested in the idea of there being no significant advantage for transwomen when they participate in women-only sport. Or, they are invested in the idea of making the arguments that any physical advantages do not outweigh the huge injustice of not allowing a transwoman to play on a woman-only team.

I can only imagine that their fellow team mates are just delighted that they are getting a goal keeper with such a useful physique for the role of goalie. I imagine, for instance, that it would be unlikely that they had the smallest hands on their team and by the looks of things their body, with arms stretched out to the sides, could cover a large area of the goal mouth.

There have been rumblings in the past few months with the FA and grass -roots women's teams. A number of LGBTQI-friendly teams have boycotted the amateur Super 5 league because they objected to their 'transphobic' regulations. One team, Camden Bells FC, wrote to the FA demanding the 'immediate removal of invasive medical tests which examine the hormone levels of trans non-binary people before they are cleared to play'.

I think this might refer not only to testing for reduced testosterone levels in non-binary trans people who were born male but also to test for significantly increased testosterone levels in non-binary trans people who are taking testosterone to masculinise their born female bodies. I guess if everybody is happy playing on a mixed team then that's fine.

I think mixed football teams that are LGBTQI inclusive have justifiably a lot of support. And it's great that these exist so that all people can be included in a sport they love. But the clash exists when all-women teams suddenly have players who have been through a male puberty - and then play other teams who don't. I suppose the only way to make it 'fair' then, would be for all women's teams to allow transwomen to play. But would there be a cap on the number of transwomen allowed in a women-only team?

I would be interested to read the PhD research that Blair (the goalie for Hastings) has recently completed. I would like to see the evidence that proves that there is no residual physical advantage to them playing on an all-female team. I wonder whether there is as much of a push to get many transmen onto men's teams?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how the FA react. I certainly wouldn't like to be a female footballer who wanted to play women's football but by expressing this preference would be ostracised and labelled as a bigot. I'm sure there are many LGB women footballers out there waiting to get some much-needed clarity on this.

SmallThingsEverywhere · 01/04/2022 19:24

@MyLittlePhonyPony

But again, you are assuming all the women on the team think it's unfair.

We know in Kent cricket Maxine's the ex males team member team mates are happy for Maxine to play with them against biological female opponents .

Yep because having a man on their team actually advantages them and disadvantages the other women’s team, also commonly known as cheating
Truthlikeness · 01/04/2022 19:51

I would be equally unhappy (possibly even more so) to have transwomen players on my own team. It goes against everything I believe women's football exists for. I would wholeheartedly welcome transmen, pre-testosterone, which is a banned substance, of course, if your own body doesn't make it in large quantities.

Truthlikeness · 01/04/2022 19:55

[quote CatProcrastinator1]@Truthlikeness, if you are thinking about speaking out, perhaps you could contact Fair Play for Women. I appreciate that you are not in an FA controlled league. I am nothing to do with the the admin of FPFW, but they are very knowledgeable.

The length of the goal kick must confer a huge advantage.[/quote]
I did actually reach out to them a couple of years ago as I thought it was worth challenging the FAs guidance. They blatantly misrepresent the Equality Act, among other things. I think it's even more pertinent now following the Sport Council's guidance that you cannot balance safety, fairness and inclusion. They are prioritising inclusion and they should be made to state that outright and show what impact assessments they have done to show women's safety isn't compromised.

FPFW didn't reply at the time - they had a lot of other things on their plate- but I might contact them again. I'm near the end of my playing career, I have less to lose than many others.

Truthlikeness · 01/04/2022 20:06

[quote Skyellaskerry]@Truthlikeness thanks very much for your reply and I wish you well in speaking out. It would be very sad if girls were put off starting to play the game, it having come such a long way in terms of participation by girls and women and rightly being a great sport to watch in its own right, and I'm sure to play. I would have loved to have had the chance to play but it just wasn't available when I was young unfortunately![/quote]
I had my first chance to play when I went to university at 18 - it was the first thing I signed up for at Freshers Week :-) But we have women joining our team in their thirties, having never played before, who are already scared and bewildered by the game! Imagine what it would be like for them to go up against a male who has played since childhood. Imagine the likelihood of them continuing to play...

I also play mixed-sex friendly football. I'm under no illusion how much the guys hold back and I'm still frequently sent flying. I also hold back when tackling as I am guaranteed to come off worse and risk injury, e.g. I would never challenge a man to a header. I don't have the same thoughts when playing against women, as I know I can hold my own. Playing again men changes EVERYTHING about the game.

Skyellaskerry · 01/04/2022 20:23

@Truthlikeness even though I don't play I can certainly imagine what you describe.

worriedatthistime · 01/04/2022 21:30

@Truthlikeness what about if as a woman i don't want to change in front of a man ,that seems to be ignored
Also if all can play together why not just make it a mixed sport ?

worriedatthistime · 01/04/2022 21:32

@Skyellaskerry also when my ds was younger although a skillfull player he was often dismissed as being too small/ short
And that was common place with the academies to often pick the taller larger lads as they were supposedly stronger

ChristinaXYZ · 01/04/2022 21:54

Have there been any transwomen gymnasts? It just it seems that the transing seems to mainly happening in sports where being taller, faster, stronger, more explosive, with larger hands and feet and heart/lung capacity is an advantage. Surely there should be roughly equal numbers across all women's sports starting to apply. I wondered if I had missed the transwomen who fancied flick-flacking their way across a four inch bar? Or landing on the mats in the splits.

Have there been any in sports like gym where being small and flexible and having had a male puberty is a disadvantage?

Or are there any transwomen competitive horse riders - where the sport already has in effect an open category - in everything from dressage to racing?