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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans woman selected for Womens football squad

97 replies

HermioneKipper · 01/04/2022 11:49

TW - a male - selected for England Universities Sport Women's Squad. Depriving a woman of a spot.

mobile.twitter.com/HastingsUFCW/status/1509175209118638093

Womens sport is being destroyed before our eyes. I am so angry but I don’t know what I can do.

It’s utterly depressing

OP posts:
DameHelena · 01/04/2022 13:26

@OvaHere

I wonder if a goalie was deliberate as a first point of infiltration? Less opportunity to be running and tackling alongside women showing up the major differences. Less chance of injuring a woman directly. A bit like twice the age Hubbard being selected for the Olympics.
I thought this too.
DameHelena · 01/04/2022 13:31

@RandomThought96

and may even get a thrill out of the advantage and wins it brings to their team

I think this is exactly right. A male body in goal in a women‘s game gives the team a huge advantage. This will appeal to both players and coaches.
Given that this is the goal keeper we are talking about few, if any, of the women on the team would have been competing for this spot so win/win for them. Also the likelihood of contact injuries with a goalkeeper is lower (though not negligible) so dangers can be talked down.

But rubbish for the women‘s teams they are playing though.

Given that this is the goal keeper we are talking about few, if any, of the women on the team would have been competing for this spot so win/win for them. How is this a win/win? If you're a goalkeeper and you're up for a spot and don't get it, why would you care if you were up against one other person or ten? And AFAIK there aren't many positions in a team anyway, so a full-back for example would be competing for what, one of two spots? What's the massive difference?
ChateauMargaux · 01/04/2022 13:32

I agree that young women don't see the problems with the trans narrative. They see inclusion, breaking down gender barriers and removal of sex based bias. When I was in my 20's, I wanted to be treated as an equal and not singled out as a female, I didn't want to be part of the sisterhood, I was one of the boys.. right until I was the pregnant one.. and then the house of cards came crashing down and I saw the world from a whole different angle.

NotEnoughTeaYet · 01/04/2022 13:35

Re the cricket - yeah, my ovaries and I would probably be a lot happier being on the side with the batsperson who can wallop constant sixes than being on the team facing a six foot spin bowler or fielder who can hurl a ball at top speed from the boundary towards the wicket I'm running at.

MarshaBradyo · 01/04/2022 13:38

@NotEnoughTeaYet

Re the cricket - yeah, my ovaries and I would probably be a lot happier being on the side with the batsperson who can wallop constant sixes than being on the team facing a six foot spin bowler or fielder who can hurl a ball at top speed from the boundary towards the wicket I'm running at.
Exactly

Maybe that person wouldn’t be so jubilant if they rocked up to a team with two or three males against their one.

It’s madness and a shambles

AlecTrevelyan006 · 01/04/2022 13:38

mobile.twitter.com/Blair90x/header_photo

No comment

CatProcrastinator1 · 01/04/2022 13:39

No team member or supporter can complain because if they do they will be disciplined or the club fined.
twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1509808886471143424

The FA would not allow women to speak out.

Dinosauria · 01/04/2022 13:51

Given that this is the goal keeper we are talking about few, if any, of the women on the team would have been competing for this spot

What because women are too soft to go in goal, too delicate. Listen to yourself.
Every women's team has a goal keeper and a second, there is a woman that will have trained for years for her place on that team and it has been taken from her by a man.

Truthlikeness · 01/04/2022 14:01

Football is my sport. I've played amateur football for nearly 30 years. The FA guidance for inclusion of trans people (written in 2016) is an absolute car crash and was written with absolutely no consideration for women and are woefully out of date . I've quoted some of it below.

It explicitly includes cross dressers as trans. It claims discrimination under the Equality Act includes "refusing to let a trans woman play on the women’s team'". Regarding changing rooms, iIt is good practice to ask a trans person what would work best for them and aim to accommodate their preferred option." "Some trans women may be happy to change or shower in open facilities alongside other women."

As non-binary people may not feel particularly comfortable in either men’s or women’s spaces, it claims best practice is to "Ideally, making all toilets, showers and changing cubicles gender neutral"

"The law says that trans people may only be treated differently in relation to sport if it is necessary to ensure fairness of competition – or safety of competitors in a ‘gender-affected activity’.11
a ‘gender-affected activity’ is a competitive activity where the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of
one sex would put them at a disadvantage compared to average persons of the other sex . however, whether a trans person can play for a gendered team is not based on whether they are ‘average’ . competitive advantage in sport is based on having better-than- average physical capacity .
We might consider whether a trans woman’s physical capacity falls outside the entire spectrum of women . Or whether a trans man’s physical capacity falls outside the entire spectrum of men . For instance, we say that all women can play women’s football – we
do not say that only women of average physical capacity can play women’s football . Likewise we say all men can play men’s football – we do not say that only men of average physical capacity can play men’s football .
Footballers come in all shapes and sizes . That’s the beauty of the game . consider the wide range of physicalities of players such as Peter crouch and Lionel messi, Diego maradona and Joe hart in the men’s game . Likewise England internationals Jill Scott and Fran Kirby are 5 ft 11 inches and 5 ft 1 inch respectively .
Some people will fall into the broad overlap of the ranges of male and female physical capability, whether or not they have undergone any medical intervention ."

• a player will almost always be authorised to play in the team of their self-identified gender if they can show:

  • theirhormoneshavesettledintherange‘typically’ associated with their self-identified gender,
  • theirgenderhasbeenreassignedthroughsurgery .
• Players who fall outside that description will be considered case- by-case, taking safety and fair play into account The Fa’s aim is to maximise inclusion of trans people in football – highlighting the core ‘football is for everyone’ ethos "

"concerns around fair play tend to relate to trans women . There may be an assumption that someone who currently has (or in the past has had) male physical attributes will inevitably have an unfair advantage .
concerns around trans men and fair play are rare because of the common assumption that someone who currently has (or in the past has had) female physical attributes will inevitably be at a disadvantage .
Both assumptions should be avoided and the actual individual situation considered ."

On occasions a trans woman may be a better player than some of her team mates, or even the best player on the team . as with any other player, this may reflect a range of factors including her physical capacity, her temperament, past access to playing opportunities and coaching, and the time and effort she has invested in practice and skills development . her status as a woman should not be questioned simply because she is good at football – being good at football is to be celebrated ."

Skyellaskerry · 01/04/2022 14:07

It's taken a long time for the womens game to get to where it is today. Football wasn't available to me when I was at school but it's been great to see the rise in girls and women playing the sport, from schools right through to the professional and international teams. The mens and womens game might be the same but are different to watch, unsurprisingly. It is sad to think of women losing places and opportunities to play, at all levels.

ChateauMargaux · 01/04/2022 14:11

equalityinsport.org/resources/index.html

This document is clear... competitive fairness cannot be reconciled with self identification into female competition. Segregation on the basis of sex is lawful. Testosterone suppression is unlikely to guarantee fitness between transgender women and natal females in gender affected sport.

If inclusion is a priority.. crack on..
If fairness is a priority... no males in female sport.

Skyellaskerry · 01/04/2022 14:28

@Truthlikeness
Where's the acknowledgment in any of this that the womens and mens games are played differently. The guidance includes mention about footballers coming in all shapes and sizes, true enough, but right now watching a game played by a team of women or a team of men, of all shapes and sizes within each single-sex team, is still different. Curious also as to what your fellow footballers think.

Mummyoflittledragon · 01/04/2022 14:30

The first women’s football match was played un 1895. The FA banned women from playing on associated member grounds in 1921. This was purely because women’s matches were more popular than the men’s and one women’s match saw a crowd of 53,000. Mammoth in those days. This ban was not lifted until 1971 by which time history was forgotten, women’s football decimated and men hailed as footballing legends.

Women’s football is slowly becoming more popular. But parity with the men’s is a long way off. One hundred years on, it is no longer be possible to ban women’s football and sport in general, however, it is possible to disrupt it.

NecessaryScene · 01/04/2022 14:35

If inclusion is a priority.. crack on..
If fairness is a priority... no males in female sport.

Ross Tucker has been quite good on this the last few days.

twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1508715330272645124

When is inclusion fair? Only when it happens in the absence of selection, which is something I’ve said too. But the moment there is selection, it’s no longer fair. And it can’t be balanced.

twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1508558155885776904

(Following on from another person who said "The whole project of trying to get males to the equivalent performance if they were born female is only half the point of fairness to women. Women can’t move to men’s sports and be at the top level with hormones, so more natal males will get scholarships, trophies, etc. overall.")

There’s a kind of hypothetical you can play where you imagine that every male in sport transitions by reducing T and it DOES remove ALL male advantage. What would happen is that 50% of all the slots in women’s sport would be taken up by these “altered” males. That would mean that per 1000 women’s slots, 500 would go to natal males, only 500 to females. As opposed to 1000 to females. So it would be unfair EVEN IF the male advantage were removed entirely. Of course, it isn’t, so that 50/50 split wouldn’t really happen, it would be more like 90/10, or 99.9/0.1. But the conceptual point is that you couldn’t achieve fairness even if all male advantage is removed. Of course, people will now argue that “it’s only a few, not that many” etc, thereby rejecting this conceptual thought experiment. But the fact remains that women’s places are taken by men even if the advantage is removed entirely. It’s just less obvious when it happens away from podiums and medals, and affects selections instead.

ChateauMargaux · 01/04/2022 14:48

I was paraphrasing and being flippant but the report does place a lot of emphasis on inclusion while clearly stating that it is not compatible with fairness.

Molamola · 01/04/2022 14:53

HU Women have a fantastic goals against record. Wonder how they've managed that? Clue - Hamilton has started 22 out of a possible 23 games this season.

Trans woman selected for Womens football squad
Dinosauria · 01/04/2022 15:10

@Molamola

HU Women have a fantastic goals against record. Wonder how they've managed that? Clue - Hamilton has started 22 out of a possible 23 games this season.
It's a fucking joke.
Swayingpalmtrees · 01/04/2022 15:45

what are we actually going to do about it?

I get everyone is upset very rightly, but we need to do something - it shouldn't be our problem to solve admittedly this should have been dealt with a long time ago on the grounds of fairness and inclusion.

WearyLady · 01/04/2022 15:46

We're forever being told that there are only a very small number of trans women at the higher levels of women's sport but the numbers are clearly growing.

MyLittlePhonyPony · 01/04/2022 15:48

I don't know, but I like many others find myself at a loss for what to do because:

I am not allowed to express my political alliance unless I risk my career

I need my career to earn money

I need money to eat

I imagine many people are in a similar bind.

Swayingpalmtrees · 01/04/2022 15:52

And that is the same for all of us, and they know it.
We are over a barrel, and that needs to change.

Why should we have to lose our jobs etc for just being honest?
Blackmailed effectively to stay quiet.

WearyLady · 01/04/2022 16:00

There are many ways to silence us, not just economic. I expressed my views to a friend and was told 'it's a generational thing'. In other words, I'm too old to hold a valid opinion.

BigWoollyJumpers · 01/04/2022 16:29

blogs.bmj.com/bmjopensem/2021/11/09/meet-greet-the-team-blair-hamilton/

Studied Exercise and Health "Science" - obviously didn't cover sex based difference....

BigWoollyJumpers · 01/04/2022 16:41

bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/bmjosem/8/1/e001273.full.pdf

Just read this. It's a complete nonsense. I hadn't realised how ridiculous it is. It is based on human rights, not biological science.

WearyLady · 01/04/2022 16:57

@BigWoollyJumpers "obviously didn't cover sex based difference...."

Quite the contrary. Blair's main research interest is transgender sport, specifically the affects of testosterone on performance.

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