Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

Shhhhh now the grown ups are speaking

I didn’t think Easter holidays started till next week

@Cayeli

“Sex based pronouns are sex based.”

Nope, the notion of "sex-based pronouns" was invented by transphobes like yourself, in reality pronouns are just grammatical gender, no less socially constructed than "sex-based" clothing styles.

Lol. Sex based pronouns used since language evolved are recent inventions now are they?

And by transphobes no less.

Wow who knew? Oh my days, do keep them coming.

It's sometimes said that women accepting that men have greater muscle mass, power, larger hearts etc are being sexist. This is a misconception, no doubt fueled by the tough girl/superhero trope in the media since around the eighties(Think Biffy the Vampire Slayer, Marvel etc).

However it's on fwr I learned that women's fat stores allow them to be excellent deep sea pearl divers.
And that women are biologically geared to survive for longer in extreme environments like deserts.
That women's immune systems are generally more robust than men's.
That women have performed better in endurance tests than men (with proportional control)

We are different. Nothing shameful about admitting men have advantage in some areas. Women have plenty of natural attributes men don't share.

Accepting we are different yet equal is feminist.

Pretending we are all the same does no one any favours.

Nobody had sex before prounouns existed!

Fantastic.

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

Shhhhh now the grown ups are speaking

I didn’t think Easter holidays started till next week

No some schools broke up today. Probably hyped up on end of term parties too.

@DomesticatedZombie

Nobody had sex before prounouns existed!

Fantastic.

Nah this generation invented sex, obviously.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

It's sometimes said that women accepting that men have greater muscle mass, power, larger hearts etc are being sexist. This is a misconception, no doubt fueled by the tough girl/superhero trope in the media since around the eighties(Think Biffy the Vampire Slayer, Marvel etc).

However it's on fwr I learned that women's fat stores allow them to be excellent deep sea pearl divers.
And that women are biologically geared to survive for longer in extreme environments like deserts.
That women's immune systems are generally more robust than men's.
That women have performed better in endurance tests than men (with proportional control)

We are different. Nothing shameful about admitting men have advantage in some areas. Women have plenty of natural attributes men don't share.

Accepting we are different yet equal is feminist.

Pretending we are all the same does no one any favours.

I didn't know about the pearl diving - that's very interesting!

@Cayeli

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Who are you to say whether, deep in the dark mists of time, when the English language was evolving out of a mish-mash of Anglo-Saxon, Norman French and Latin, people intended pronouns to be sex-based or gender-based? This is not a matter for you to just declare.

I think so. It also could explain why Kate survived in the water but Jack succumbed...

Yeah, you use the language you do for the purpose of alienating, othering, and villifying trans people, that is certainly clear

If I were speaking to, or in earshot of someone I knew to be trans I would use their preferred pronouns out of politeness. I stand by what I said earlier (or possibly on another thread) about 'othering'. People who are trans ARE 'other'. A transwomen is not the same as a woman. A transman is not the same as a man. They are no better or lesser than any other human being, but they are not the same. They have made themselves 'other' by rejecting their sex class.

Why is refrring to an adult human male as a man (if that is what I see) villifying / alienating?

Different does not mean inferior 🙄
An apple is not an orange that is not a value judgement. One of the oft cited differences between male and female bodies is the q angle. This is different because one body has evolved to carry and bare children while the other has not. Side effects of this difference is the bodies design to bear children are as a class slower than those that weren't but have better balance. Which of those in inferior? Speed or balance? It should be blindingly obvious that in different circumstances it will be different bodies. Please don't come on to a feminist board and try to claim that we are calling women inferior.

“Lol. Sex based pronouns used since language evolved are recent inventions now are they?

And by transphobes no less.”

Just like "sex-based rights", the phrase "sex-based pronouns" was invented in the recent years by yourselves.

All this time before now, they were called gendered pronouns.

Interesting though that because most sports have been created in a patriarchal system, speed is often considered more important than other skills like flexibility and balance. (Obviously wrongly, but this is a world designed by men).

It's interesting that sports like gymnastics which has gravitated toward having a good proportion of participants that are female, have systems that judge and commend the attributes women excel at as part of the sport.

“Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia.”

@MyLittlePhonyPony

Interesting though that because most sports have been created in a patriarchal system, speed is often considered more important than other skills like flexibility and balance. (Obviously wrongly, but this is a world designed by men).

It's interesting that sports like gymnastics which has gravitated toward having a good proportion of participants that are female, have systems that judge and commend the attributes women excel at as part of the sport.

Would you seek to ban trans women from these sports, despite being so confident that cis women have a natural advantage in them?

Trans women can compete with the men.
Absolutely a ok with me.

All this time before now, they were called gendered pronouns

Tommyrot

'What choice does Lia Thomas have?'

Here's the choice, socially transition only, no medication. Continue your career in biological men's category but lobby for every support to make you feel comfortable. Don't wreak havoc on professional sportswomen.

Wait until your career has peaked or you retire, take medication and continue your personal journey.

Guess who makes a similar sacrifice. 1000s of frigging sportswomen, since the beginning of professional women's sports who postpone babies and families for their career. With no tears or tantrums or forcing the system to work for then unfairly.

It's called responsibility, everyone has choices, everyone learns to deal with consequences and in life very few can have their cake and eat it.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

“Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia.”

Find any instance of the phrase "sex-based pronouns" being used before 2015. Then I will stand corrected.

Obviously for clarity gymnastics is a combination of strength speed skill balance and flexibility.

So men will have advantage in some areas and women in another.

It's why they have different moves and equipment.

Find any instance of the phrase "sex-based pronouns" being used before 2015. Then I will stand corrected.

Why would we want to do that?

It's interesting that sports like gymnastics which has gravitated toward having a good proportion of participants that are female, have systems that judge and commend the attributes women excel at as part of the sport.
They also have disciplines that are different for males and females that requires different attributes so rather than seeing men struggle on the balance beam or woman unable to perform many of the moves done on the rings it has evolved different disciplines to favour different body types which seem a very strange thing to do if we are all the same apart from lipstick and hair cuts.

@Crcohetmonster

Find any instance of the phrase "sex-based pronouns" being used before 2015. Then I will stand corrected.

Why would we want to do that?

To prove that the phrase "sex-based pronouns" isn't just bullshit you made up to justify malicious and deliberate misgendering.

Charley posted an excellent post (which I annoyingly cannot find) on this thread or a similar one in which she gave several such examples, at least two in relation to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and the date she gave was, as far as I can remember, 1995 for one citation.

@Waitwhat23

Here's a reply from a SNP Councillor in response to an invitation to a public meeting to discuss women's rights in Motherwell -

'Good afternoon,

I am delighted to advise that I will not be attending your meeting where you state you will discuss Gender Recognition reform but do not advertise any transgender speakers, just as I would not attend a meeting about disabled issues where none of the invited speakers had lived experience of disability.

As Gender Recognition reform is a matter for UK and Scottish Parliament legislation in which local councils have no locus, I can only assume that the purpose of your email is to identify those who support trans rights and add them to one of your wee lists – Hi!

You know very well that the proposed reforms to the GRA do not offer new rights to trans people nor do they remove rights from any women. “The potential effect on children and young people from the proposed gender recognition reform” is very emotive isn’t it? Especially when you consider that the proposed legislation does not include any changes to the rights of children.

You do not speak for me. I support the rights of all women.

To be clear, please feel free to add me to your so-called ‘women’s rights campaign’s’ list of women candidates that you intend to encourage your ‘gender critical’ associates not to vote for in the council elections.

Wishing you the day you deserve

Councillor Janine Calikes (She/her)'

This is an elected representative.

That is the worst response I think I've ever seen. How fucking dare she???