Transwomen advocates for women

[LittleWhingingWoman]

I thought it would be good to start a post to see how many Transwomen out there are advocating for womens and childrens rights as opposed to just trans rights. To be clear, I'm not just talking about bloggers - I'm talking about high profile TW who work in charities etc.

A quick google search is bringing up nothing for me. Maybe others know more examples? It would be good to see links to their work etc.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the very fact they accept the mantle of trans women is a signifier their concern for women only goes as far as they can align with it.

I have seen numerous posters on here who claim to be trans and ask how they can be good allies to women. However, it soon becomes clear that their support is dependent on their own demands: eg. Transwomen who have had surgery allowed in female safe spaces, pronouns adhered to for x type of trans women but not z. It seems more an exercise to ensure they are in the sacred caste with other 'not true' trans cast out

The very fact they use the word women with the insulting sexism that implies is enough to make me question motivation. That's my own personal feeling and not a generalisation.

You may find allies in ones who profess themselves to be transvestites, but I expect our views on sexism can't possibly align, because what they consider the trappings of womanhood are generally rather sexist.
Again, I use the words may and generally so not a sweeping statement...

Just to add it's a bit like trying to find allies in conservative men who believe women belong in the kitchen.

They might believe in sex as a real thing, but their ideological feelings about what that means for women and the restrictions we should have don't align with feminism.

This is why this is so difficult to fight, we're largely on our own.

Debbie Hayton at the Spectator?

@bluelavender

Debbie Hayton at the Spectator?

Debbie does write a lot of good articles and provides a needed calm sounding rational trans voice sticking up for us but Debbie is someone who is a controversial figure because of previous behaviour which others can elaborate on. Many, many women have issues with this.

Personally I am always glad when I see a new column by Debbie as the information is usually sound and listened to by men (ironic isn't it?)

Rose of Dawn on YouTube does stellar work both on TV appearances and on their channel making videos like the above - Rose isn't on Mumsnet I don't think, but is a much needed voice and too rational and clever to be easily dismissed by young people.

There are several. Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison who spoke at A Woman's Place meetings, Fionne Orlander, SevenHex on Twitter. Blaire White in the US often attracts flak from all directions.

A few transmen, too - Buck Angel springs to mind.

Good call on Miranda. Here's their latest video I think.

Debbie's latest here:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/at-least-boris-johnson-knows-the-difference-between-men-and-women

You may find it interesting to look up some of Lily Madigan's work as a TW who took a women's officer post: much is on record.

Madigan I believe explained that any female based biological/women's issue that was not shared by TW was therefore not a women's need and would not be represented.

That was about the point I accepted that this was never, never going to work.

I would also suggest searching for some of the threads where TW have spoken with female people here on MN, some of whom (DH included) have been willing to discuss female rights.

What quickly becomes apparent is that in fact many of those posters are interested in their own preferred outcome which is that they decide where the gatekeeping on female single sex spaces happens, and it place that gatekeeping to their own advantage.

You also start to notice the belief that there is a higher authority and entitlement to decide for females and inform females of what their decision is on what said females may and may not keep and what male born people will be commandeering. They do not see female people as having a say: merely as being permitted to put their evidence and requests to the senior management of male born people who will then let them know their carefully reached decision.

The extreme end sexism of this consistently escapes them.

You will also notice that they are usually regretfully willing to exclude female people from female spaces in order to meet their own needs, and see this as a fair price.

@Artichokeleaves see this is the big issue with having Transwomen like Mridul working in womens spaces. Who exactly are they prioritising? In Mridul's case we know exactly from previous offensive statements.

If we saw a lot of Transwomen working in safeguarding for women and children I would feel as if we shared something in common as "women".

But that's not the impression Mridul gives for example.

@Artichokeleaves

"You also start to notice the belief that there is a higher authority and entitlement to decide for females and inform females of what their decision is on what said females may and may not keep and what male born people will be commandeering. They do not see female people as having a say: merely as being permitted to put their evidence and requests to the senior management of male born people who will then let them know their carefully reached decision."

This would be good to highlight some examples of (you don't need to dig this out btw)

We are constantly being told that our feminism needs to include "all witches" by smug jawed Emma Watson. So my question is "are TW including all women? Or only including the women that agree with them?"

Corinna Cohn now identifies as transgender rather that a trans woman and has help with the term is a slur page and advocated for women's sports and single sex spaces

@DomesticatedZombie

There are several. Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison who spoke at A Woman's Place meetings, Fionne Orlander, SevenHex on Twitter. Blaire White in the US often attracts flak from all directions.

A few transmen, too - Buck Angel springs to mind.

I was going to mention Kristina. I have met her and she was lovely - the level of abuse she gets (E.g. Kapo) is awful Caityln Jenner has said some things that are broadly supportive to women, especially in sports

No.

No man in womanface can ever speak for me. I do not consent. Live freely, attend to your own transperson rights but keep the fuck out of my spaces and out of my natural- born-woman's face.

Women need to stop hearing, listening to, respecting, valuing the opinions and contributions of men in dresses. And the same for men - ignore them too, including Graham-Oh-Look-I'm-Crying-Again-Linehan.

@StopStartStop

No.

No man in womanface can ever speak for me. I do not consent. Live freely, attend to your own transperson rights but keep the fuck out of my spaces and out of my natural- born-woman's face.

Women need to stop hearing, listening to, respecting, valuing the opinions and contributions of men in dresses. And the same for men - ignore them too, including Graham-Oh-Look-I'm-Crying-Again-Linehan.

Alright. Christ.

@DomesticatedZombie

There are several. Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison who spoke at A Woman's Place meetings, Fionne Orlander, SevenHex on Twitter. Blaire White in the US often attracts flak from all directions.

A few transmen, too - Buck Angel springs to mind.

I understand Kristina plays on a female football team.

I met Kristina briefly at a woman’s place meeting, gave the impression they couldn’t be arsed to chat to women there that they didn't deem as important but all smiles and charm for the speakers/organisers.

Debbie Hayton’s interview with Stella O’Malley is worth watching, probably not for the reasons Debbie thinks.

Form what I’ve seen of Fionne Orlander, they speak in support of women but not for women. That is a very significant difference.

You see some TW tweet in support of some women’s issues, not necessarily spaces but say around periods for instance, but having seen that Dentons document about getting involved in other campaigns I am highly sceptical of the motivation behind it.

Debbie Hayton also consistently refuses to engage in any discussion on the damaging to women’s rights education trans policy they wrote

OP I eat your first question slightly differently from the responses here. PPs have focussed on Trans people who support women's right to single sex spaces and belief in biology.

Are you asking about Trans people who generally work in support of women and children? Not simply people with an opinion on Trans issues?

There were some (ironically) in one of the 100 influential women lists, people around the world working in the charitable sector who were trans. I objected to their presence on the women's list, while recognising they could have been doing stellar work for women and children. I wouldn't expect them to exclude trans people from their work, simply not to prioritise them ahead of other groups. Mridal doesn't meet this criteria as they insist their desire to work in a women's refuge trumps the need of women for single sex spaces.

It's a discussion that's been going on for years.

There are points at which some TW (often those who prefer to use the term transsexual for themselves) and female-rights agendas touch or run parallel, but they are not on the same agenda and the two groups have different interests.

DH for example, and other TW MNetters: what they express is really that they would like the genie to go back in the bottle, and return to ten years ago when a very small group of male born people, who had gone through considerable surgeries, used women's spaces and while it wasn't without its problems for women, women pretty much put up with it.

The problem is, that genie cannot be put back. That ship has sailed. It's an ex parrot.

@Artichokeleaves

It's a discussion that's been going on for years.

There are points at which some TW (often those who prefer to use the term transsexual for themselves) and female-rights agendas touch or run parallel, but they are not on the same agenda and the two groups have different interests.

DH for example, and other TW MNetters: what they express is really that they would like the genie to go back in the bottle, and return to ten years ago when a very small group of male born people, who had gone through considerable surgeries, used women's spaces and while it wasn't without its problems for women, women pretty much put up with it.

The problem is, that genie cannot be put back. That ship has sailed. It's an ex parrot.

I agree with this. I also went through an early phase of thinking every voice / any voice was useful in the fight for safeguarding, women's spaces etc. and that included "sane" trans identifying males.

I can't ignore the cognitive dissonance anymore. They are walking contradictions and ultimately undermining to the women's movement. And when it comes to the crunch, men will always be at odds to women on this. Now I just focus on women's voices.