Transwomen advocates for women

[LittleWhingingWoman]

I thought it would be good to start a post to see how many Transwomen out there are advocating for womens and childrens rights as opposed to just trans rights. To be clear, I'm not just talking about bloggers - I'm talking about high profile TW who work in charities etc.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

Correct me if I am wrong, but the very fact they accept the mantle of trans women is a signifier their concern for women only goes as far as they can align with it.

I have seen numerous posters on here who claim to be trans and ask how they can be good allies to women. However, it soon becomes clear that their support is dependent on their own demands: eg. Transwomen who have had surgery allowed in female safe spaces, pronouns adhered to for x type of trans women but not z. It seems more an exercise to ensure they are in the sacred caste with other 'not true' trans cast out

The very fact they use the word women with the insulting sexism that implies is enough to make me question motivation. That's my own personal feeling and not a generalisation.

You may find allies in ones who profess themselves to be transvestites, but I expect our views on sexism can't possibly align, because what they consider the trappings of womanhood are generally rather sexist.
Again, I use the words may and generally so not a sweeping statement...

I don't have a problem with the word 'transwomen'/'transwoman' as such. At least it distinguishes transwomen from women. IMO the bigger problem is the stance 'transwomen are women' and refusing to use the word 'man' for people with penises who dress as women.

IMO the bigger problem is the stance 'transwomen are women' and refusing to use the word 'man' for people with penises who dress as women.

But the word women in transwomen is exactly what allowed that thinking to flourish.

Transexuals are women isn't as effective pr.
Also I don't believe the removal or not of a penis makes any difference. The penis is not a magic organ, which when removed negates all physical advantage or male pattern behaviour.

Gatekeeping with caveats is difficult and the goalposts will inevitably shift.

No male born people are entitled to women's rights ever. No hoop they can jump through bestows that right. End of.

@picklemewalnuts

OP I eat your first question slightly differently from the responses here. PPs have focussed on Trans people who support women's right to single sex spaces and belief in biology.

Are you asking about Trans people who generally work in support of women and children? Not simply people with an opinion on Trans issues?

There were some (ironically) in one of the 100 influential women lists, people around the world working in the charitable sector who were trans. I objected to their presence on the women's list, while recognising they could have been doing stellar work for women and children. I wouldn't expect them to exclude trans people from their work, simply not to prioritise them ahead of other groups. Mridal doesn't meet this criteria as they insist their desire to work in a women's refuge trumps the need of women for single sex spaces.

Yes you've got it - it was less about bloggers etc as I mentioned in my second post although I think it's useful to link the people we are talking about for anyone reading the boards who are new to it and also for reference. I suppose what I'm specifically interested in as I'm thinking about it now - is do Transwomen actually push for women's rights when they are in positions that advocate for women and girls? Or do they focus on the trans to the exclusion of the best interests of women and children? Mridul as we've said is a big resounding no.

Any transwoman who genuinely wants to support women will understand that their presence at feminist events and in women’s groups may well exclude trans widows (women whose exes transitioned, including their own ex, if any - see transwidowsvoices.org ) and so will politely and considerately stay away.

If a transwoman who wanted to be supportive had written guidelines for a certain trade union stating that any male staff member cross-dressing at a party should be allowed to use the women’s toilets, they would realise how wrong this was and get it corrected ASAP.

Any supportive transwoman would obviously not use our toilets or play on our sports teams.

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

Any transwoman who genuinely wants to support women will understand that their presence at feminist events and in women’s groups may well exclude trans widows (women whose exes transitioned, including their own ex, if any - see transwidowsvoices.org ) and so will politely and considerately stay away.

If a transwoman who wanted to be supportive had written guidelines for a certain trade union stating that any male staff member cross-dressing at a party should be allowed to use the women’s toilets, they would realise how wrong this was and get it corrected ASAP.

Any supportive transwoman would obviously not use our toilets or play on our sports teams.

This ^^

They could still address this and show they take some notice of what women are saying and care a little about women’s rights but unless they do we have no option but to conclude they are just a different flavour of TRA who has infiltrated the women’s rights movement

No man in womanface can ever speak for me. I do not consent. Live freely, attend to your own transperson rights but keep the fuck out of my spaces

I agree, StopStartStop, and with all those posters who note how TW 'support' tends to be very much about their own interests.

Also as Artichokeleaves says, They do not see female people as having a say: merely as being permitted to put their evidence and requests to the senior management of male born people who will then let them know their carefully reached decision.

But I welcome men who speak and write in support of women. We need these genuine allies.

I tend to think of transwoman (or transman) advocates the same way as everyone else - are they in good faith working for the best outcomes they can see for everyone involved?

I don't think it will ever be the case that anyone will have a totally clear view of what that looks like apart from their own experience. We are all affected by our own perspectives, and even women can be biased in advocating for other women. I've had women who advocate on sexual abuse issues who I felt were so far from representing my views they would be of no use to me.

Men who advocate on women's issues can be very good and effective in some cases, they may also have blind spots. Some will have really significant blind spots. In general, I would say that applies to transwomen, they are male people who are advocating for other people and I don't see them as particularly more or less likely to be good at it. The fact that there may be conflicts inherent might well be a factor for some, but other people can operate really well even under those conditions. Where transwomen can be most effective I think is talking about elements that also effect them - as they have a right to do like all citizens. And they can also be effective in showing people that there is actually a variety of opinions on issues within that community - something many people these days seem to lack understanding around.

I am pretty sure no activists are perfect people, so I'm not inclined to hold anyone to that standard.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

IMO the bigger problem is the stance 'transwomen are women' and refusing to use the word 'man' for people with penises who dress as women.

But the word women in transwomen is exactly what allowed that thinking to flourish.

Transexuals are women isn't as effective pr.
Also I don't believe the removal or not of a penis makes any difference. The penis is not a magic organ, which when removed negates all physical advantage or male pattern behaviour.

Gatekeeping with caveats is difficult and the goalposts will inevitably shift.

No male born people are entitled to women's rights ever. No hoop they can jump through bestows that right. End of.

I don't agree. I think 'trans' before the word 'man' or 'woman' is clear enough for most people's understanding. It gets across that there is a difference between this person and a woman, or a man.

Yes but plenty of evidence that people think a trans women is a trans identified biological woman and vice versa.

The language is deliberately wooly for this reason.

Honestly, ask your friends who are ignorant on the subject. During the Olympics it was quite an eye opener how many people thought Laurel was a tall woman who was. Trying to look mannish(and obviously succeeding very well)

I always enjoy Miranda Yardley's work.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

Yes but plenty of evidence that people think a trans women is a trans identified biological woman and vice versa.

The language is deliberately wooly for this reason.

Honestly, ask your friends who are ignorant on the subject. During the Olympics it was quite an eye opener how many people thought Laurel was a tall woman who was. Trying to look mannish(and obviously succeeding very well)

I am probably the most ignorant on the subject among people I know! That's why I haunt these boards; I'm trying to learn.

Well learning is always a good thing.

However, I wouldn't assume that you are the most ignorant. The fact you are on this board means hopefully you understand a transman= biological woman transwoman= biological man, 80% of the time with a penis.

The general public don't tend to know these facts at all, so twaw sentiments from polling can't be taken on face value because many people won't know what they are polling on.

artichoke I did a double take, thinking that your husband frequently writes on here as a TW , than in realised whom you were referring to!

Oops.. then I....

transwoman= biological man, 80% of the time with a penis

Only 80% of the time?

Seconding what's already been said about transwidows and their exclusion.

I met Kristina briefly at a woman’s place meeting, gave the impression they couldn’t be arsed to chat to women there that they didn't deem as important but all smiles and charm for the speakers/organisers.

I don't think that's distinctive of Kristina* nor any particular group but is positively recommended in networking terms. I largely have no value for anybody who needs to network and I think it's helpful for people to know that upfront (and I'd say that if someone asked me).

*I've never met Kristina so this is a more general comment.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Seconding what's already been said about transwidows and their exclusion.

I met Kristina briefly at a woman’s place meeting, gave the impression they couldn’t be arsed to chat to women there that they didn't deem as important but all smiles and charm for the speakers/organisers.

I don't think that's distinctive of Kristina* nor any particular group but is positively recommended in networking terms. I largely have no value for anybody who needs to network and I think it's helpful for people to know that upfront (and I'd say that if someone asked me).

*I've never met Kristina so this is a more general comment.

Whilst that is largely the case for networking opportunities for the majority of women women’s rights meetings are not a career opportunity

@Monitaurus

artichoke I did a double take, thinking that your husband frequently writes on here as a TW , than in realised whom you were referring to!

Transwoman can only ever advocate for their own rights it is all they can ever know.

However, as 'women know your limits' never applies to them, they are quite happy to put themselves forward to advocate for women. There is even a transwoman on the RCOG women's network committee.
rcog.org.uk/about-us/governance/committees/rcog-women-s-network/#:~:text=Members%20%20%20Member%20%20%20Role%20,%20Clinical%20member%20%2015%20more%20rows%20

Whilst that is largely the case for networking opportunities for the majority of women women’s rights meetings are not a career opportunity

Networking can be about social networks that benefit from people with lots of connections and social capital: I have neither to offer so it's good for people to know that. I've attended a number of WPUK and comparable meetings and there are lots of women looking to recruit people to their activism/social networks or to meet like minds. It's not always strictly about careers but social psychologists would say almost everything is about status and value, I have neither and I know it.

My only personal experience of Kristina was on stage at FiLiA a few years ago, expressing outrage at the idea that women might want their toilets to be single sex at all times, not just when others considered it acceptable.

EmpressasurusWitchDoesntBurn
…almost everything is about status and value, I have neither and I know it.

I respectfully disagree you have value

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

I think we’re both in agreement in suspecting Kristina aligning themselves with women’s rights is all about Kristina’s perception of their status within the movement and nothing about women

I think 'trans' before the word 'man' or 'woman' is clear enough for most people's understanding. It gets across that there is a difference between this person and a woman, or a man.

Not at all. On the contrary, they are deliberately muddying the water.

'A Muslim woman' is universally understood to mean an adult human female who is Muslim. Anyone who is not informed in the trans issue will parse 'a trans woman' in the same way: that this term refers to an adult human female who is trans.

QThis is why defenders of the trans ideology insist on separating the two words, rather than allowing them to be blurred into one word. People see 'trans women' and think 'women', whereas people see 'transwomen' and may think 'oh, what's that mean?'

No male who uses terminology that deliberately gaslights people into including males within the classification of women can ever really be advocating for women.