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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Former Trans Child of Gender Critical Parents (very long). *Trigger warning - descriptions of self harm and suicide* - Title edited by MNHQ

541 replies

pop91 · 26/03/2022 22:33

Hi,

To start I wanna say I'm writing this post in good faith to provide the viewpoint of a Trans person with Gender Critical parents but I know this is the internet and this will probably just be trolled to death but here goes.

I had a pretty regular 'happy' family setup, and apparently first told my parents of my identity at just 5yrs old but the first I remember is at 8yrs old when I refused to go by my 'very gendered' birth name but my parents insisted on using it especially publicly.

My parents were never particularly strict on gender roles in the home - my sister would wear my dad's glasses and jacket and stomp around with his briefcase in hand and my brother had an emo phase with heels and mascara to match and apart from some grumbling from my father it was never the biggest issue in our house.

Sexuality was different though even though my father would class himself as a pragmatic centrist, barring a socialist university phase, and my mother a card-carrying progressive New Labour type whose Best Friend was the most flamboyant gay man and an Aunt who lived with her 'friend' until she passed. There was an uncomfortableness with sexuality where both my parents would call it a lifestyle choice and opposed gay marriage - cut to three years ago when my older brother came out as bisexual and last month the youngest sister as a lesbian Grin but rest assured the other 3 siblings remain firmly 'normal.'

Back to me and by 12 I had started puberty and was experiencing debilitating gender dysphoria - I would look into the mirror and see nothing that matched my brain. I would continue to feel this way until the bullying and dysphoria got so bad that one night I climbed into my bathtub with a kitchen knife hoping I could change my body to fit my brain somehow I managed not to perform self-surgery in my bathtub.

A couple of months later I came clean to my parents, I wasn't expecting a big hug but I wasn't expecting what came next. They ignored it as if I had told them what I wanted for dinner, they decided they didn't hear what I had said at all.

Over the next year, the internet became my friend as I found ways to affirm my gender by doing hidden things at first and then slowly more outward things. I came out to my siblings and although they found it confusing my oldest brother and sister were a godsend who I wouldn't have survived without, They helped me pick out a new haircut and new clothes and we came up with a new name.

I came out in school and sure there was bullying but I was feeling so Euphoric that it almost didn't matter. When the teachers found out they informed my parents and that's when everything changed! My parents sat me down and said I was just confused. They threw out my new clothes, anything that I used to affirm my gender, even my shoes and magazines then they took my bedroom door off and took away my laptop and phone and forced my older siblings to refer to me by my birth name, my older brother and sister stopped supporting me and I lost my only family support and anything that was helping me.

Eventually, when they realised everything they had done hadn't worked and I still felt the same way, they decided to try both religious and non-religious conversion therapy which left permanent scarring to my mental health and I frequently have nightmares about it.

At 15 I had my first suicide attempt and my parents forced me to lie and say it was due just to bullying at school but that wasn't true it was the dysphoria and conversion therapy that was killing me.

From 15 to 17 I had multiple suicide attempts and after the third one, my parents finally allowed me to stop the conversion therapy but still forcibly live as my 'biological' sex.

Eventually, I managed to get to a great University and at 18 I socially transitioned and by 20 I had started hormones. I now have a job that provides me financial stability and have an amazing partner, with 2 children from a prior relationship that I now consider like my own. We are also now having a baby very soon.

My mother now describes herself as Gender Critical and frequently posts online about how she will be unable to see her grandchildren because of her views, which is true as I will not allow my parents to see either my child or stepchildren.

My parents continue to refuse to acknowledge my identity and pronouns. The last time we talked, she said she believes I am just gay, which neither makes sense considering my partner's gender nor the fact she also has a terrible relationship with my lesbian sister and bisexual brother who also rarely allows his child to visit my mum, due to her comments about their sexualities.

I finally have the support back of all my siblings and we do frequently gather without my parents. I hope one day my parents change their minds but honestly I don't hold much hope and I don't know if I could forgive what they did to me.

A lot of online trans activists wish trans children for Gender Criticals but I don't, it wasn't very nice at all. If you're going to ask if I think kids should transition, the answer is I don't know as I didn't transition as a child and a social transition helped plenty for me.

Well that's it I think, just the perspective and experience of a trans person with Gender Critical parents, feel free to ask any reasonable questions or respectful questions. Smile

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NotTerfNorCis · 27/03/2022 04:23

pop91 Thanks for your reply. I suppose what I'm driving at is, some genderists don't think a 'sex change' is necessary at all. They might be happy with their bodies but want to live socially according to the norms associated with the other sex (what feminists call 'gender'). In that case the definition of woman couldn't be expressed as someone who was physically female, or a male who saw himself as being in wrong body.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 04:27

@AlexaShutUp

Sorry, but I don't think you can compare the words man and woman to all of the offensive racist and homophobic terms that you have listed. It isn't the same.

If there are words that have been used specifically to denigrate and insult trans people, then you have every right to demand that people stop using them.

However, that isn't what you're asking for. The words man and woman are not offensive and you aren't asking us to refrain from using them. You're asking us to change their meaning.

The thing is, I still don't even know what you want that new meaning to be. How can we be expected to agree to a new definition of the word when that definition still isn't forthcoming.

Trans people have informed you that calling a Trans Man a woman is deeply offensive and does denigrate and insult Trans Men!

Trans people have informed you that calling a Trans Woman a man is deeply offensive and does denigrate and insult Trans Women!

Yes, we are specifically asking you to refrain from calling a Trans Man a Woman or a Trans Woman a Man.

I have repeatedly provided a definition for Man & Woman and wheater you accept that definition is up to you.

And for example the N-word DOES mean black but it is also deeply racist, the P-word DOES mean Pakistani but it is also deeply racist.
See how language can both have a literal meaning and still be offensive?

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pop91 · 27/03/2022 04:33

@NotTerfNorCis

pop91 Thanks for your reply. I suppose what I'm driving at is, some genderists don't think a 'sex change' is necessary at all. They might be happy with their bodies but want to live socially according to the norms associated with the other sex (what feminists call 'gender'). In that case the definition of woman couldn't be expressed as someone who was physically female, or a male who saw himself as being in wrong body.
If you don't see yourself as a woman then you aren't a woman.

A sex change isn't necessary but a social transition is and that varies by person because most trans people do make a physical change but those that don't claim they can alleviate dysphoria by simply being referred to by their gender identity and I can attest that simply being able to go by my name and pronouns made my gender dysphoria far less severe but to move into gender euphoria I needed a medical change.

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Clymene · 27/03/2022 04:39

Gosh I'm amazed you're still here, arguing with women on the internet when it's Mother's Day tomorrow and you'll presumably be wanting to make the day special for your heavily pregnant girlfriend. Hope her two kids don't wake you too early either!

Testingprof · 27/03/2022 04:46

@AlexaShutUp

Sorry, but I don't think you can compare the words man and woman to all of the offensive racist and homophobic terms that you have listed. It isn't the same.

If there are words that have been used specifically to denigrate and insult trans people, then you have every right to demand that people stop using them.

However, that isn't what you're asking for. The words man and woman are not offensive and you aren't asking us to refrain from using them. You're asking us to change their meaning.

The thing is, I still don't even know what you want that new meaning to be. How can we be expected to agree to a new definition of the word when that definition still isn't forthcoming.

@pop91 you need to read this post. As a mixed race (androgynous) woman your posts are becoming increasingly racist and offensive. Race exists, it’s clear the you are white, race is not cultural. Your example of a black and a white baby being left and several generations there being no race is bullshit. Clearly you’ve never heard of throwbacks (not uncommon for two pale mixed race people to have a black child). The N word does not mean black (it is a slur just like the other word you posted that is often thrown at people not from Pakistan) unless you are thinking of negro, go and do some research.

I’ve been misgendered/sexed whatever all the bloody time. It’s not painful. It is irritating when someone points out the mens toilets are over there but it’s not literal violence or draining for my mental health (try being racially abused daily at work and come back to me regarding your mental health).

Testingprof · 27/03/2022 04:52

Just as a note no one (well not that I’ve seen) suggests calling a trans woman a man, there are plenty of people asking/demanding that trans women are not called women and that they are carry the prefix trans. There lived experience (and biology) is very different to a woman and that should be acknowledged not ignored.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 04:54

@Clymene

Gosh I'm amazed you're still here, arguing with women on the internet when it's Mother's Day tomorrow and you'll presumably be wanting to make the day special for your heavily pregnant girlfriend. Hope her two kids don't wake you too early either!
As you might have guessed from the original post, mothers day isn't very big for me. just another day :)

And it's THE kids not his/her/their kids. If they do wake me up I won't force them into listening to a rant about how persecuted JK Rowling is.

what are you doing up? presumably, a mother has kids who will surprise her in the morning?

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pop91 · 27/03/2022 05:04

@Testingprof

you need to read this post. As a mixed race (androgynous) woman your posts are becoming increasingly racist and offensive. Race exists, it’s clear the you are white, race is not cultural.

I'M MIXED RACE! as you might have guessed from me mentioning further up that my Father is Muslim! He is of Pakistani ethnicity and my mother's father is half Nigerian. The assumption that I'm white is VERY weird considering I've alluded to the fact I'm not!

RACE IS NOT REAL! IT'S A SOCIAL CONTRUCT!
If you mean ethnicity then that is VERY different to race!

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pop91 · 27/03/2022 05:08

@Testingprof

The N word does not mean black (it is a slur just like the other word you posted that is often thrown at people not from Pakistan)

Both words are SLURS and have meaning beyond that why is that difficult to understand?

I’ve been misgendered/sexed whatever all the bloody time. It’s not painful. It is irritating when someone points out the mens toilets are over there but it’s not literal violence or draining for my mental health (try being racially abused daily at work and come back to me regarding your mental health).

You are not Trans why would misgendering hurt you? Confused

I have been racially abused MY ENTIRE LIFE! don't use one form of bigotry to excuse another. wtaf?

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NurseBernard · 27/03/2022 05:23

Gender is not real.

It is a social construct.

Animals do not have a gender. They have a sex.

Biological sex - male and female - is THE thing that enables us to procreate - and therefore exist.

Again - gender is a lot less real than race.

marvellousmaple · 27/03/2022 05:30

Why are people like you always so self-obsessed? And dull. Call yourself whatever you want. Nobody cares. If you were born a man though you are a man. Revel in all of your advantages. Wear a terrible wig and a bad crop top if it makes you happy. Just stay out of women's spaces and places and sports and move on. Gosh this is getting boring.

Testingprof · 27/03/2022 05:33

[quote pop91]@Testingprof

The N word does not mean black (it is a slur just like the other word you posted that is often thrown at people not from Pakistan)

Both words are SLURS and have meaning beyond that why is that difficult to understand?

I’ve been misgendered/sexed whatever all the bloody time. It’s not painful. It is irritating when someone points out the mens toilets are over there but it’s not literal violence or draining for my mental health (try being racially abused daily at work and come back to me regarding your mental health).

You are not Trans why would misgendering hurt you? Confused

I have been racially abused MY ENTIRE LIFE! don't use one form of bigotry to excuse another. wtaf?[/quote]
Seriously? Well why does being called the ‘wrong’ gender hurt you? It doesn’t validate you? Well being called gentleman doesn’t validate me but it doesn’t hurt because its easy to say actually lady and move on with my life. It’s ridiculous to state that as I’m not trans that being misgendered isn’t a thing but because you are trans it’s really painful, it’s exactly the same thing. Being called man if you present as much is not a slur (unlike the racist words you are trying to compare it to).

I’ll change me your obviously white to you obviously pass for white. Sorry but I disagree with your statement regarding ethnicity existing but race not. Ethnicity has a specific meaning which is mostly down to social aspects which being mixed race tends to mean you don’t fit either social construct or are accepted fully into either (which you’d know if you were mixed race). Race is about the outward signifiers.

Testingprof · 27/03/2022 05:39

“ don't use one form of bigotry to excuse another. wtaf?”
Actually you’ll find it was you who has been doing this. You literally have been trying to pretend the N word is the same as man. Have a word with yourself.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 06:09

Seriously? Well why does being called the ‘wrong’ gender hurt you? It doesn’t validate you?

GOOGLE Gender Dysphoria!!

but because you are trans it’s really painful

YES

it’s exactly the same thing

NO

Being called man if you present as much is not a slur (unlike the racist words you are trying to compare it to)

I am very clearly stating that INTENTIONALLY misgendering someone is!
WTAF is not clear about that?

I’ll change me your obviously white to you obviously pass for white

Me: I have been racially abused MY ENTIRE LIFE!
You: So like you look white then?

Seriously? please, stop being obtuse!

Sorry but I disagree with your statement regarding ethnicity existing but race not. Ethnicity has a specific meaning which is mostly down to social aspects which being mixed race tends to mean you don’t fit either social construct or are accepted fully into either (which you’d know if you were mixed race)

Just complete word waffle! do you wanna read that back and see if it made any sense?

I'm part Nigerian (an ethnicity not a race) I'm half Pakistani (an ethnicity not a race) please explain what you think my race is since I happen to be only 42% white, 50% Pakistani and 8% Nigerian.

Actually you’ll find it was you who has been doing this. You literally have been trying to pretend the N word is the same as man. Have a word with yourself

Putting words in my mouth I VERY clearly said a Trans Man has the right to not be called a woman as it's offensive and disrespectful as a black person has the right to not be called the N-word as it's offensive and disrespectful. Nowhere have I claimed they are the exact same thing nor have I examined exactly how offensive or disrespectful each is in comparison, just that marginalised peoples have the right not to have offensive language used against them!

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Testingprof · 27/03/2022 06:35

Man is not offensive. The N word definitely is.

I understand Gender Dysphoria it still doesn’t explain why being called gentleman is not offensive for me as a woman but is to you. You aren’t explaining or even attempting to just saying by being trans being misgendered is incredibly painful but being misgendered when you are not trans is obviously not painful. Why? Exactly the same thing is happening. Well actually the trans persons biological truth is being spoken but in the case of the person who is not trans surely it is worse as it’s a slur because they aren’t that sex at all? Using your own logic…

Rinatinabina · 27/03/2022 06:37

I haven’t read the rest but your parents weren’t gender critical. They were mainly just homophobic and believed in gender conforming behaviour which is not what gender critical feminists tend to believe. It’s actually the opposite of what most gender critical women on these boards believe in, meh to gender but Sex is a material reality which is immutable. Sorry but thats just true.

It’s really odd how many people seem to believe that people they call “gender critical” are trying to force people to conform to gender stereotypes. No wonder people keep associating feminists with religious nutcases, they don’t actually know what gender critical means.

Testingprof · 27/03/2022 06:39

Btw Nigerian is not an ethnicity. Black African would be an ethnicity. I notice you use white and not the country for white but you specify country of origin for the other ‘ethnicities’. Why is that?

pop91 · 27/03/2022 07:49

@Testingprof

Man is not offensive. The N word definitely is.

I understand Gender Dysphoria it still doesn’t explain why being called gentleman is not offensive for me as a woman but is to you. You aren’t explaining or even attempting to just saying by being trans being misgendered is incredibly painful but being misgendered when you are not trans is obviously not painful. Why? Exactly the same thing is happening. Well actually the trans persons biological truth is being spoken but in the case of the person who is not trans surely it is worse as it’s a slur because they aren’t that sex at all? Using your own logic…

Man is not offensive. The N word definitely is

You're dictating offence for a group you are not a part of.
And you see no problem with that?

I understand Gender Dysphoria it still doesn’t explain why being called gentleman is not offensive for me as a woman but is to you. You aren’t explaining or even attempting to just saying by being trans being misgendered is incredibly painful but being misgendered when you are not trans is obviously not painful. Why? Exactly the same thing is happening. Well actually the trans persons biological truth is being spoken but in the case of the person who is not trans surely it is worse as it’s a slur because they aren’t that sex at all? Using your own logic

You don't understand Gender Dysphoria! That's the problem here!

Imagine if you will that you were a person of colour and of mixed heritage and felt deeply you were a person of colour and of mixed heritage and someone came up to you and insisted you were white and continued to even after you corrected them. And having explained the circumstances they then continued to deny you by saying 'you're actually white passing' you might then find this person to be offensive and disrespectful.

When a trans person tells you they are not the gender you have assigned them and you not only refuse to respect that but go on to outwardly insult the person by claiming they are the gender you have assigned them they for instance feel highly disrespected.

You don't need to use the preferred gendered terms for such a person to validate them you just need to not use the ones you've been told are offensive. for example: have a good day vs have a good day sir/maam.
You're not violating your views by using ungendered language.

and finally, as I've now REPEATEDLY stated I don't believe a full sex change is possible just a partial one!

Now please stop being obtuse!
You KNOW why it hurts and more so than that you would like to use it to hurt!

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pop91 · 27/03/2022 07:50

@Rinatinabina

I haven’t read the rest but your parents weren’t gender critical. They were mainly just homophobic and believed in gender conforming behaviour which is not what gender critical feminists tend to believe. It’s actually the opposite of what most gender critical women on these boards believe in, meh to gender but Sex is a material reality which is immutable. Sorry but thats just true.

It’s really odd how many people seem to believe that people they call “gender critical” are trying to force people to conform to gender stereotypes. No wonder people keep associating feminists with religious nutcases, they don’t actually know what gender critical means.

They describe themselves as GC.

Maybe inform such people that they aren't welcome then!

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pop91 · 27/03/2022 07:54

@Testingprof

Btw Nigerian is not an ethnicity. Black African would be an ethnicity. I notice you use white and not the country for white but you specify country of origin for the other ‘ethnicities’. Why is that?
Btw Nigerian is not an ethnicity. Black African would be an ethnicity

Literal Brain Rot!
are you actually doing this intentionally now?

I notice you use white and not the country for white but you specify country of origin for the other ‘ethnicities’. Why is that?

because I have not spent the time with my mother to work out exactly what kind of white she is. I'll be sure to the next time she berates me.

Now fix your brain rot or I will stop replying.

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LittleWhingingWoman · 27/03/2022 07:55

Have you informed your transactivist community that sending rape and death threats to women who don't want men in their intimate spaces isn't welcome? It is it just us you want to lecture?

NotTerfNorCis · 27/03/2022 07:57

If you don't see yourself as a woman then you aren't a woman

But by the same logic if you don't see yourself as an adult, are you a child; if you don't see yourself as human, are you another species; if you don't accept the colour of your skin, is it another colour? The answer to all those things is no - so why should sex be any different?

LittleWhingingWoman · 27/03/2022 07:58

Also a little reminder - many of us here are from ethnic minorities. You aren't talking to an audience of white right wing women even though Twitter tells you otherwise.

lightisnotwhite · 27/03/2022 08:03

You’re right about certain words not being used as they are racial slurs. One group putting down another

But we still use black and white to describe people. Because otherwise how do you describe the problem of white supremacy or Black Lives Matter? You still need male and female, man and woman to describe the two sexes.

I think I’m white actually because of my very white cultural upbringing but other people see my (a gran) Indian heritage and assume I’m Asian. I’ve been called the P word.
I get it’s upsetting when you feel something and others see you as something else. What I have learnt though it’s the assumptions that annoy me; I can speak another language, I might have visited the country, I eat certain foods.
The stereotypes are the problem not the words defining things.

LolaLouLou · 27/03/2022 08:06

Why is it OK for you to use language that many women find deeply offensive - cis - in a previous post?

When you a walking down the street, or sitting in a cafe or meeting with friends. Do you think they percieve your (your friends, the waitress etc) as a woman or a trans woman? Is this question offensive to you? It is not meant to be - I am genuinely curious.

In terms of whether women should police the views or behaviour of other women (such as your mother) - that isn't our job or role on society.