Former Trans Child of Gender Critical Parents (very long). *Trigger warning - descriptions of self harm and suicide* - Title edited by MNHQ

[pop91]

Hi,

To start I wanna say I'm writing this post in good faith to provide the viewpoint of a Trans person with Gender Critical parents but I know this is the internet and this will probably just be trolled to death but here goes.

I had a pretty regular 'happy' family setup, and apparently first told my parents of my identity at just 5yrs old but the first I remember is at 8yrs old when I refused to go by my 'very gendered' birth name but my parents insisted on using it especially publicly.

My parents were never particularly strict on gender roles in the home - my sister would wear my dad's glasses and jacket and stomp around with his briefcase in hand and my brother had an emo phase with heels and mascara to match and apart from some grumbling from my father it was never the biggest issue in our house.

Sexuality was different though even though my father would class himself as a pragmatic centrist, barring a socialist university phase, and my mother a card-carrying progressive New Labour type whose Best Friend was the most flamboyant gay man and an Aunt who lived with her 'friend' until she passed. There was an uncomfortableness with sexuality where both my parents would call it a lifestyle choice and opposed gay marriage - cut to three years ago when my older brother came out as bisexual and last month the youngest sister as a lesbian but rest assured the other 3 siblings remain firmly 'normal.'

Back to me and by 12 I had started puberty and was experiencing debilitating gender dysphoria - I would look into the mirror and see nothing that matched my brain. I would continue to feel this way until the bullying and dysphoria got so bad that one night I climbed into my bathtub with a kitchen knife hoping I could change my body to fit my brain somehow I managed not to perform self-surgery in my bathtub.

A couple of months later I came clean to my parents, I wasn't expecting a big hug but I wasn't expecting what came next. They ignored it as if I had told them what I wanted for dinner, they decided they didn't hear what I had said at all.

Over the next year, the internet became my friend as I found ways to affirm my gender by doing hidden things at first and then slowly more outward things. I came out to my siblings and although they found it confusing my oldest brother and sister were a godsend who I wouldn't have survived without, They helped me pick out a new haircut and new clothes and we came up with a new name.

I came out in school and sure there was bullying but I was feeling so Euphoric that it almost didn't matter. When the teachers found out they informed my parents and that's when everything changed! My parents sat me down and said I was just confused. They threw out my new clothes, anything that I used to affirm my gender, even my shoes and magazines then they took my bedroom door off and took away my laptop and phone and forced my older siblings to refer to me by my birth name, my older brother and sister stopped supporting me and I lost my only family support and anything that was helping me.

Eventually, when they realised everything they had done hadn't worked and I still felt the same way, they decided to try both religious and non-religious conversion therapy which left permanent scarring to my mental health and I frequently have nightmares about it.

At 15 I had my first suicide attempt and my parents forced me to lie and say it was due just to bullying at school but that wasn't true it was the dysphoria and conversion therapy that was killing me.

From 15 to 17 I had multiple suicide attempts and after the third one, my parents finally allowed me to stop the conversion therapy but still forcibly live as my 'biological' sex.

Eventually, I managed to get to a great University and at 18 I socially transitioned and by 20 I had started hormones. I now have a job that provides me financial stability and have an amazing partner, with 2 children from a prior relationship that I now consider like my own. We are also now having a baby very soon.

My mother now describes herself as Gender Critical and frequently posts online about how she will be unable to see her grandchildren because of her views, which is true as I will not allow my parents to see either my child or stepchildren.

My parents continue to refuse to acknowledge my identity and pronouns. The last time we talked, she said she believes I am just gay, which neither makes sense considering my partner's gender nor the fact she also has a terrible relationship with my lesbian sister and bisexual brother who also rarely allows his child to visit my mum, due to her comments about their sexualities.

I finally have the support back of all my siblings and we do frequently gather without my parents. I hope one day my parents change their minds but honestly I don't hold much hope and I don't know if I could forgive what they did to me.

A lot of online trans activists wish trans children for Gender Criticals but I don't, it wasn't very nice at all. If you're going to ask if I think kids should transition, the answer is I don't know as I didn't transition as a child and a social transition helped plenty for me.

Well that's it I think, just the perspective and experience of a trans person with Gender Critical parents, feel free to ask any reasonable questions or respectful questions.

Because race is cultural because if you put a white baby and a black baby on a desert island and come back 100 years later, race probably wound't exist for them whereas Sex and Gender would.

Sex would certainly exist. I'm interested in what your evidence is that gender would persist. I don't think it would.

Assuming you're female - do you believe if you had the same brain but had male biology and a penis, eat.. that you wouldn't feel like there was a disconnect or something was off

This is just stupid. If we were born male we wouldn't have the same brain would we. Our entire life experiences would be different.

for example: In your mind, you are 5'11 with a beard, a flat chest and a dick but in reality, you're 5'2 with no beard and boobs and a vagina
that disconnect makes someone trans

Ok, so are you saying that the bearded men who have a dick and wear a suit that now say they are women are not trans? Because they have no such disconnect or dysphoria.
They aren't performing woman gender so how can they be women?

should that include trans conversion therapy?

The issue is with the whole affirmation only no

nsense.
90% of kids with dysphoria grow out of it and most are same sex attracted. ie gay.
So by only allowing affirmation rather than therapy etc to try to find the causes of the dysphoria, which could be from many things, 100% of those children will be told they must be trans, making it must harder to desist. Convincing non conforming gay kids that they are trans IS conversion therapy.

It seems very odd behaviour for homophobic parents to put their gender non-conforming child through 'conversion therapy' to get them to say they're gay. Very odd.

I think the problem for GC women is where we have to change words and tell untruths.

As stated man and woman already have commonly held definitions.

A man is an adult male of the human species.
A transman therefore can never be a man.

A transman is a transman. If transmen have decided to create and use this new term to specifically describe themselves, then that is their perogative. If a transman wants to live as a transman, and live without fear of discrimination for their beliefs, then of course.

When a transman says factual untruths, and demands that other people join them in these untruths, then there is a problem. Saying a transman is a man is factually untrue based on the historical and current shared definition of the word man.

If a transman has a problem with the consesnsus shared definition of a word in use for centuries, then i suggest that transman looks to mental health support to unpick why this is so problematic and unconfortable, as opposed to trying to forcibly change the definition of a word which over 99% of the population use.

@sacredfeminina

That transman would need to change every cell in their body, have their body naturally produce male hormones and have a full functioning male reproductive system. It is impossible so it is a pointless hypothetical question. In that scenario i would more likely accept a transman as a man. I would be wondering though if this highly expensive and energy draining technology was necessary, when some people cannot even meet their basic needs like clean drinking water or heating their homes.

maybe if science works it out in thousands/millions of years then trans men finally can be accepted as men. YAY!

would you also accept such a person as male?

@AlexaShutUp

Because race is cultural because if you put a white baby and a black baby on a desert island and come back 100 years later, race probably wound't exist for them whereas Sex and Gender would.

Sex would certainly exist. I'm interested in what your evidence is that gender would persist. I don't think it would.

maybe someone should test it out.

But we do know gender variance exists in the disconnected cultures of South Asia and Indigenous Americans.

In a thousand million years the earth wont be here as we know it because humans spent too long arguing about definitions and focusing on how their bodies appear rather than collectively joining forces to try to slow down the ecological collapse of the world.

I agree, I struggle to understand why we need to change age-old definitions of words like man and woman. They have always been defined in terms of biological sex, which we seem to agree is a biological reality.

I totally accept that some people don't identify with the gender stereotypes that are typically associated with their biological sex, but my response to that would be to try and get rid of gender stereotypes rather than to start redefining what words mean.

I do accept that some people experience gender dysphoria, and of course, they deserve to be treated with respect and compassion. I have no desire for anyone to be miserable. However, in the longer term, I believe that those people would be better served if we worked as a society to rid ourselves of the old gender stereotypes rather than reinforcing them by trying to pretend that people are something that they're not.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Assuming you're female - do you believe if you had the same brain but had male biology and a penis, eat.. that you wouldn't feel like there was a disconnect or something was off

This is just stupid. If we were born male we wouldn't have the same brain would we. Our entire life experiences would be different.

for example: In your mind, you are 5'11 with a beard, a flat chest and a dick but in reality, you're 5'2 with no beard and boobs and a vagina
that disconnect makes someone trans

Ok, so are you saying that the bearded men who have a dick and wear a suit that now say they are women are not trans? Because they have no such disconnect or dysphoria.
They aren't performing woman gender so how can they be women?

should that include trans conversion therapy?

The issue is with the whole affirmation only no

nsense.
90% of kids with dysphoria grow out of it and most are same sex attracted. ie gay.
So by only allowing affirmation rather than therapy etc to try to find the causes of the dysphoria, which could be from many things, 100% of those children will be told they must be trans, making it must harder to desist. Convincing non conforming gay kids that they are trans IS conversion therapy.

This is just stupid. If we were born male we wouldn't have the same brain would we. Our entire life experiences would be different.

I'm asking IF you did have the same brain though!

Ok, so are you saying that the bearded men who have a dick and wear a suit that now say they are women are not trans? Because they have no such disconnect or dysphoria.
They aren't performing woman gender so how can they be women?

If they don't have that disconnect then i don't belive they are trans regardless of how they dress.

90% of kids with dysphoria grow out of it and most are same sex attracted. ie gay.
So by only allowing affirmation rather than therapy etc to try to find the causes of the dysphoria, which could be from many things, 100% of those children will be told they must be trans, making it must harder to desist. Convincing non conforming gay kids that they are trans IS conversion therapy.

pulling numbers but what of the 10% that don't 'grow' out of it?

I was listening to a podcast by a specialist on this matter. Gender variance does exist but those groups of people who felt different never actually pretended to be female or male, never tried to force their way into those categories. They were their own, seperate category.

Latest Gender wider lens podcast. I reccomend you listen you might find helpful insights

The 10% who dont grow out of it grow up to be adults and then cab make their own informed consensual choices of what they want to do with their adult body. The other 90% are haply living their lives healthy and uninterferred with.

10% have to wait, or 90% are subjected to incorrect irreversible damage. Which is worse?

But we do know gender variance exists in the disconnected cultures of South Asia and Indigenous Americans.

My degree was in social anthropology. While every society seems to identify differences between men and women, I would argue that these are based on sex, not gender. If gender was innate, then all societies should have the same universal ideas about specifically male and specifically female traits, but they don't. The things that are constant across all societies tend to have their roots firmly in biological differences - ie differences in physical strength, childbearing etc.

@sacredfeminina

In a thousand million years the earth wont be here as we know it because humans spent too long arguing about definitions and focusing on how their bodies appear rather than collectively joining forces to try to slow down the ecological collapse of the world.

maybe if we could agree on how to treat trans people and settle the issue then we could focus on the ecological collapse of the world.

I'm asking IF you did have the same brain though!

Yes, but the point is that your brain could not possibly be the same because you would have been socialised differently.

@AlexaShutUp

I agree, I struggle to understand why we need to change age-old definitions of words like man and woman. They have always been defined in terms of biological sex, which we seem to agree is a biological reality.

I totally accept that some people don't identify with the gender stereotypes that are typically associated with their biological sex, but my response to that would be to try and get rid of gender stereotypes rather than to start redefining what words mean.

I do accept that some people experience gender dysphoria, and of course, they deserve to be treated with respect and compassion. I have no desire for anyone to be miserable. However, in the longer term, I believe that those people would be better served if we worked as a society to rid ourselves of the old gender stereotypes rather than reinforcing them by trying to pretend that people are something that they're not.

maybe they need change because they are age-old.

time moves on and society has to choose whether or not to accept trans people on our terms or force us to be social outcasts by your terms.

I take no big issue with gender roles, I'd like to be accepted for the change in my gender, not gender roles attached to it as I honestly don't follow the gender roles my gender supposedly enforces.

But we do know gender variance exists in the disconnected cultures of South Asia and Indigenous Americans

In order for this magic innate gender, that you think everyone has, to be real, it would have be constant and consistent across the global human population. It isn't.

The two sexes, however, are.

TRA's still can't even give us a consistent, universal, logical meaning of what 'trans' or 'gender identity' actually mean.

@sacredfeminina

The 10% who dont grow out of it grow up to be adults and then cab make their own informed consensual choices of what they want to do with their adult body. The other 90% are haply living their lives healthy and uninterferred with.

10% have to wait, or 90% are subjected to incorrect irreversible damage. Which is worse?

And will you consistently make it difficult for that ' 10 %'

will you bar them from the spaces and language they need access to?
will you tell it's a delusion?
will you make their mental health worse with the constant public hounding?

It seems many of those ' 10% ' won't survive if so!

@Whatsnewpussyhat

But we do know gender variance exists in the disconnected cultures of South Asia and Indigenous Americans

In order for this magic innate gender, that you think everyone has, to be real, it would have be constant and consistent across the global human population. It isn't.

The two sexes, however, are.

TRA's still can't even give us a consistent, universal, logical meaning of what 'trans' or 'gender identity' actually mean.

but it is - I've mentioned 2 disconnected ones.

It seems the only constant is the supposed lack of gender in Abrahamic religion influenced places.

It's seen in Indigenous Australians and indigenous Americans and in South Asia and Africa and East Asia.

is it not possible the strict nature of Abrahamic religions punished what it saw as deviance rather than a natural human experience?

time moves on and society has to choose whether or not to accept trans people on our terms or force us to be social outcasts by your terms

Why should the 1% dictate the terms of the reality of the 99%. Why should we be told we must change the definition of our words because you need validation.

Why are the words woman and girls being removed from any reference to female biology just because of a minority's poor mental health?

Why can't trans people accept that they can present as they wish but that some things need to be segregated by sex not 'gender identity'

pulling numbers but what of the 10% that don't 'grow' out of it?

Isn't that why we had the watchful waiting in the first place and not instant total affirmation? So that the transexuals who actually needed the drugs and surgery could be separated from those with temporary dysphoria who grew out of it.

time moves on and society has to choose whether or not to accept trans people on our terms or force us to be social outcasts by your terms.

It isn't about your terms or my terms. It's about words that have established meanings. You can't just demand that these meanings are abandoned and replaced with a different meaning altogether.

And even if you could, what would than meaning actually be? If we accept "your terms", how could the words man and woman be defined in a way that is clear to everyone and in a way that doesn't rely on circular definitions about people feeling like a man or feeling like a woman. Because clearly, if someone feels like something, there has to be a common understanding of what that something actually is.

For what it's worth, I genuinely don't want anyone to be a social outcasts. I want trans people to be able to live happy and fulfilled lives. I just don't understand why changing the meaning of well established terms will help them to do this, because it will merely perpetuate the perception that they are asking everyone to pretend that they're something that they're not.

OP, I don't actually understand what you're talking about in your latest post. I assume that you are aware that social constructions of gender are not universal? How do you explain those differences if gender is innate?

for example: In your mind, you are 5'11 with a beard, a flat chest and a dick but in reality, you're 5'2 with no beard and boobs and a vagina.

that disconnect makes someone trans

Ok so you would define 'woman' as either someone who is physically female or someone who is physically male but who sees themself as/really wants to be physically female?

Is that how all genderists see it? I thought some don't think dysphoria is necessary to being trans. Eg that it's all about gender rather than sex.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

time moves on and society has to choose whether or not to accept trans people on our terms or force us to be social outcasts by your terms

Why should the 1% dictate the terms of the reality of the 99%. Why should we be told we must change the definition of our words because you need validation.

Why are the words woman and girls being removed from any reference to female biology just because of a minority's poor mental health?

Why can't trans people accept that they can present as they wish but that some things need to be segregated by sex not 'gender identity'

pulling numbers but what of the 10% that don't 'grow' out of it?

Isn't that why we had the watchful waiting in the first place and not instant total affirmation? So that the transexuals who actually needed the drugs and surgery could be separated from those with temporary dysphoria who grew out of it.

Why should the 1% dictate the terms of the reality of the 99%. Why should we be told we must change the definition of our words because you need validation.

Why should 5% of the UK's population (black) tell the world they can't use the N-word, it's been used for so long and just because they don't wanna be hurt by a term? and they don't feel validated by it?

Why should 5% of the UK's population (South Asian) tell the world they can't use the P-word, it's been used for so long and just because they don't wanna be hurt by a term? and they don't feel validated by it?

Why should 2% of the UK's population (gay) tell the world they can't use the F-word, it's been used for so long and just because they don't wanna be hurt by a term? and they don't feel validated by it?

Why should 51% of the UK's population (gay) tell the world they can't use the B-word, it's been used for so long and just because they don't wanna be hurt by a term? and they don't feel validated by it?

It's more than just Validation, It's about how terms can hurt especially when they are used vindictively against people.

Why are the words woman and girls being removed from any reference to female biology just because of a minority's poor mental health?

They aren't and they shouldn't be if it's sex-specific then either use 'Female' or better still use 'Women & some Trans Men.'
Stop hurting us and our mental health will improve.

Why can't trans people accept that they can present as they wish but that some things need to be segregated by sex not 'gender identity'

Because I don't 'present' a certain way! I AM a certain way.
Most things don't need to be sex-segregated and a case by case approach is best in my opinion.

Isn't that why we had the watchful waiting in the first place and not instant total affirmation? So that the transexuals who actually needed the drugs and surgery could be separated from those with temporary dysphoria who grew out of it

No, it's not helpful to still address someone by terms that cause them distress. Medical intervention is a different matter to social transition and should be treated differently.

@NotTerfNorCis

for example: In your mind, you are 5'11 with a beard, a flat chest and a dick but in reality, you're 5'2 with no beard and boobs and a vagina.

that disconnect makes someone trans

Ok so you would define 'woman' as either someone who is physically female or someone who is physically male but who sees themself as/really wants to be physically female?

Is that how all genderists see it? I thought some don't think dysphoria is necessary to being trans. Eg that it's all about gender rather than sex.

Ok so you would define 'woman' as either someone who is physically female or someone who is physically male but who sees themself as/really wants to be physically female?

get rid of the 'really wants'

Is that how all genderists see it? I thought some don't think dysphoria is necessary to being trans. Eg that it's all about gender rather than sex.

No, there was some confusion of if someone needed to have some level of distress to be trans, they don't.

and some non-binary people don't experience gender dysphoria.

but for example, for a female to be a man they need to have gender dysphoria!

Sorry, but I don't think you can compare the words man and woman to all of the offensive racist and homophobic terms that you have listed. It isn't the same.

If there are words that have been used specifically to denigrate and insult trans people, then you have every right to demand that people stop using them.

However, that isn't what you're asking for. The words man and woman are not offensive and you aren't asking us to refrain from using them. You're asking us to change their meaning.

The thing is, I still don't even know what you want that new meaning to be. How can we be expected to agree to a new definition of the word when that definition still isn't forthcoming.