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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why was gender dysphoria changed from being a mental illness?

101 replies

LittleWhingingWoman · 24/03/2022 14:25

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

But I would imagine that most people still see it as a mental illness - what qualifies it not to be?

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hhh333hhh · 31/03/2022 14:10

@AlisonDonut

A boy that lost his penis is still a boy, knew he was male and was very unhappy being raised as a girl. It is the opposite to your theory.

You say that 'he knew he was male' which means that he had an innate gender identity. So my point was that a gender identity can be innate. I am contradicting what has been said that no one has an innate gender identity. I am contradicting the idea that a gender identity will come from how your body looks and whether you are placed in male or female categories.

Usually a biological male will have a male gender identity and a heterosexual sexual orientation. Sometimes though that doesn't happen. Why we don't know. If it was just psychological then it could be fixed through therapy. If there are deeper reasons then they will have to live with it. And why not, just because you are trans or gay doesn't mean that you can't be happy. In fact the only way you can be happy is to accept yourself the way that you are. If society can do the same.

hhh333hhh · 31/03/2022 14:30

@Whatsnewpussyhat

No such thing. Gender identity isn't some special innate magic. It's made up bollocks by the trans lobby. A religious belief of a tiny minority. Don't push that shit on the rest of us.

It looks as if you are trying to push your 'blank slate' ideas about human nature on the rest of us. There was a time in the last century when blank slate views were fashionable but today most people believe that human nature is more complex. Human drives derive from a complex interaction of genetic and environmental factors. Exposure to various hormones in the womb may also play a part.

The blank slate view continues to be accepted by certain people whose political ideas are dependent on it. Namely socialists. Also by people who cannot see both sides of an argument and can only believe one extreme position or it's opposite. And by people who don't really want to think about it too much but want to have an opinion anyway.

I don't agree with what Lia Thomas is doing. That might surprise you but I can see both sides of an argument. I think that issues such as this can be easily solved. Instead of two competitions, men's and women's, there should be three.

One where anyone can compete. One where men aren't allowed. And one where men, trans women, women with chromosomal abnormalities and women with unusually high levels of testosterone aren't allowed to compete. That would solve the problem.

I also recognise (as I stated earlier in this thread) that there is a problem with teenage girls who think they are trans when they did not think that way before puberty.

wasibat · 31/03/2022 14:32

@hhh333hhh

Everyone has a sexual orientation and everyone has a gender identity. We don't really know where these come from. The three main ideas are that there is a genetic component, exposure to various hormones in the womb or early childhood experiences. We may never know which of these or a combination of these is the cause, but in a way it doesn't matter.

It seems that there is something in our brains which tells us if we are male or female. Not everyone has this, some people don't identify with either male or female. You have to ask how people can be helped to lead happy lives. Conversion is not an option.

I agree that if a teenage girl suddenly decides that she is trans, never having identified with males before, that is a problem. There is an increase in the number of these. I also agree that girls should be able to behave in ways that traditionally have been ascribed to boys without anyone considering it to be masculine behaviour.

Nope. Just plain wrong.

No-one has a gender identity. There is no such thing as gender identity in the sense of something-or-other universal in humans and causing dysphoria when somehow mismatched with sex. No such thing.

How often does this bear repeating? There is no such thing as gender identity.

Of course, what I say here will be easy to refute if you think it wrong. Explain to us either (1) an empirical way of detecting the presence of gender identity in this sense or (2) a convincing metaphysical argument for its non-empirically-based existence.

No-one has yet managed this. Care to take up the challenge?

[This is not to say belief in gender identities is in itself any more reprehensible than belief in guardian angels, say, or chakrik auras. Fill your boots. But do not expect others to share your beliefs ... and above all do not start propounding their existence as fact to children or other vulnerable people. ]

Whatsnewpussyhat · 31/03/2022 15:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 31/03/2022 15:44

How does your theory explain males like this?
It doesn't. Because it's pretend.

Why was gender dysphoria changed from being a mental illness?
AlisonDonut · 31/03/2022 15:55

You say that 'he knew he was male' which means that he had an innate gender identity. So my point was that a gender identity can be innate.

He knew his sex was male. You can make up nonsense gender bollocks until the cows come home but this does not prove he had an innate gender identity at all. It proves nothing about innate gender identity as innate gender identity doesn't even exist. You might as well say 'it proves his innate colour was indeed blue'.

wasibat · 31/03/2022 16:15

Something else, hhh333hhh. You say, '... It seems that there is something in our brains which tells us if we are male or female.'

This 'something in our brains which tells us' ...

Stop a moment. Ask yourself, 'How does your brain tell you things?' Your brain cannot talk, can it? Does it send little billets doux ? Email? Zoom? What language does it speak? Did it need to learn English? What do you think?

No. Just a metaphor. But the dependence on the metaphor itself becomes apparent when you try to cash it out. It just will not wash. What conclusions do you draw from this?

[This mistake has a name: it is a variant of the homunculus fallacy , sometimes in cases like this known as the 'mereological fallacy' . Go look it up if you still do not get why I think you are wrong here.]

-- Also, perhaps, ask yourself who the 'me' is (or your 'us' in 'something in our brains which tell us ...' ). What sort of thing is this 'me' that my brain communicates with in this way? A soul? A body? What? Is my brain a part of this 'me' ? Or are the two really distinct, and if so, how are they related?

What do you think?

There is obviously a lot of interesting material involved here, hhh333hhh . We will not cover any but a very small part of it here and now, and that in but a very cursory fashion. Just, perhaps, try to convince yourself you may not have exactly got it all right in what you have said so far.

Maybe begin with ( 'the other side of the argument'? ) the fact that I am so definite about there being no such thing as gender identity in anything like the sense required for trans ideology to get going. Do you understand what I say? What do you see as following if what I say is true?

Datun · 31/03/2022 18:02

hhh333hhh

If the boy you're talking of is David Reimer, the patient of John Money, then no.

Money was a fucked up 'sexologist' who made David and his twin brother rehearse sex acts and kept inspecting their genitals. David would have been covered in scar tissue and had no female anatomy.

Both boys killed themselves as a result of his experiment.

If you genuinely think that gender identity exists, describe the criteria one would use to believe they are the opposite sex.

The reason why a person cannot have a gender identity of the opposite sex is that sex is a description of reproductive potential, not a feeling in your head.

NancyDrawed · 31/03/2022 18:52

I have just watched Elaine Miller's talk and she makes a really interesting point about whether gender identity is innate, which might interest you hhh333hhh

She is a HCP who has been involved in Elder Care and has presented research at the House of Lords. She said that some people 'detransititon' if they get dementia, in that they forget that they had a trans identity before the dementia took hold. Sexuality does not change in a person with dementia (it is innate) but gender identity can, which suggests that it is NOT innate.

She said it was really distressing for an elderly TW who now saw himself as a man again and could not understand why he had breasts and was being dressed in womens clothes. But worse still, in Scotland, if an elderly transitioner has a GRC and in the throes of dementia asks to be called by a former name and treated as their biological sex, a care worker could be done for a hate crime if they obliged.

Fifteentoes · 31/03/2022 20:05

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Amazing -

So many words, and yet so little meaning.

hhh333hhh · 02/04/2022 14:31

@wasibat

Stop a moment. Ask yourself, 'How does your brain tell you things?' Your brain cannot talk, can it? Does it send little billets doux ? Email? Zoom? What language does it speak? Did it need to learn English? What do you think?

Our brains tell us things all the time. My brain tells me to be attracted to the opposite sex. There's not much I could do about that even if I wanted to. We all have drives which are only in part the result of earlier experiences.

You can ask the question how does someone's brain produce various drives. But you can't deny that they are there and that some people have different ones from the majority. We can't answer the question where do these drives come from except to say that there is a complex interaction between genetic and environmental factors. One early environmental factor is exposure to various hormones in the womb.

My heterosexuality is a 'feeling in my head'. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's not a concept that needs to be explained. It is a description of reality. It is as real as anger, fear or sadness.

Trans people are well aware that they are not of the opposite sex physically. If they were just deluded they would live their lives happy in their delusion. The fact that most wish to transition physically shows they are aware of the sex of their bodies.

Older people who develop dementia often do change their sexuality. Someone who has always had same sex attraction may have denied their sexuality all their lives. In the last century people hid their true sexuality and for various reasons that can emerge in older age.

In addition it does seem that sexuality can change. Although it is innate in the sense that it isn't just psychological but much more deep rooted it can still change. I'm sure there are some trans people who revert to old ways of thinking but you can't conclude anything for sure from such a small group of people.

Datun · 02/04/2022 15:00

Trans people are well aware that they are not of the opposite sex physically.

They claim they are the opposite sex, mentally, emotionally. That's what they claim gender identity is. And it trumps biological sex.

So that's my question.

Describe any or all, or even one small piece of the criteria one would use to believe they are the opposite sex.

OldCrone · 02/04/2022 15:07

Trans people are well aware that they are not of the opposite sex physically. If they were just deluded they would live their lives happy in their delusion. The fact that most wish to transition physically shows they are aware of the sex of their bodies.

How is this different from people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder? Or is it a similar condition? People with BIID also want to transition physically, to the disabled person they believe they should be.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

wasibat · 03/04/2022 12:24

hhh333hhh : Our brains tell us things all the time. My brain tells me to be attracted to the opposite sex. ...

Thank you for the response, hhh333hhh and well done for engaging with this.You have not understood, however. I will try to explain once again. (Please do not feel diminished by failure to understand this, btw, hhh333hhh or others; lots of super intelligent people, over many years, have fallen into similar error; a famous philosopher once described this as the ' bewitchment of our intelligence'.)

(I note you did not take on my question, ' How does your brain tell you ...?' The 'how' was important.)

Sorry this gets so long. Philosophy of mind is tricky, I know. And really this is not a good medium in which to pursue it. Still, and faute de mieux ...

Talk of your brain telling you things may look like a harmless metaphor or synechdoche, but actually is dodgy in that it is liable to push you into a certain kind of mistaken metaphysics. This can appear strange when you come across it at first, but bear with me. I will try to clarify.

Here is how it works:

Think of what we might call a standard, or perhaps literal use of 'telling': 'Alan tells Brenda it is raining', say. Three things: A tells B that R.

OK, now think of your brain telling you something. Here the brain takes the place of A. So far so good. But what, precisely, is B in this case? Here is where things tend to go a bit wonky. Originally ('A tells B') B was a person -- a specific individual. So we tend to look around for something like that in the brain case ... and generally the place filler (what B refers to) gets to be called a 'soul' or 'ego' , something like that. Sometimes 'what B refers to' in specific cases such as ours is (disparagingly, often) itself referred to as a 'little person' or 'homunculus'.

[Recall this is the so-called 'homunculus fallacy', first so named by Sir Anthony Kenny, see Kenny 1971. Kenny explains much better than I could hope to do, especially in such a short space. Do have a read. Kenny is very clear. The ref is to the original 1971 article; the notion occurs in later articles and books as well ( The Metaphysics of Mind is particularly worth a read; note the hat-tip to Gilbert Ryle in that title, those with some familiarity here). Other authors also have taken on the notion -- and the nomenclature.]

My brain tells my soul so-and-so? Will that do? (If not, what is the 'me' my brain is supposed to be telling?)

Think, now, of the 'telling' going on in our story. To be successful, this telling must be understandable by both A and B. That was OK; both A and B, we tacitly took it, understood the language (English) in which R ('it is raining') was couched. But, now, if A is my brain and B my soul, what language (or organised set of conventional signs, if we wish to broaden a little) does my brain use to tell me (my soul?) things, and how do I (my soul?) learn this language? My brain might try to tell me something, but how am I to understand what it means?

More. Mostly I think of my brain as being part of me. (The 'my' in 'my brain' is not possessive in the sense of 'my handkerchief', say, but rather of 'my hands' or 'my memory', whatever, (there are further distinctions -- philosophy of mind is tricky indeed!)) And often it makes no sense to apply predicates (including of action) to parts of a human or other animal when such predicates apply paradigmatically only to the person or animal as a whole. So to the brain.

'All hands on deck!' may be a useful certainly well-understood synechdoche; but contrariwise, 'All hands cut your hair!' makes no sense. I could not cut my hair without hands to hold the scissors, but it does not follow that it makes sense to say my hands cut my hair. It was me that cut my hair, not my hands. Likewise without a brain I could not decide to cut my hair, but it does not follow that it makes sense to say my brain decided or told me that it had done so. No, I decided, not my brain. (And maybe I told myself it needed cutting.) My brain could not tell me, not as a matter of empirical fact, but as a matter of what can make sense -- of what 'tell' means.

There is more of course. But this is already long. Another ref, for this last part especially. Check out The Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience by MR Bennett and PMS Hacker (Bennett & Hacker). Sorry I have no link to an online copy; your local uni library will certainly have it though. Bennett and Hacker really do the business on this.

[ "The ... mistake of ascribing to the constituent parts of an animal attributes that logically apply only to the whole animal we call 'the mereological fallacy' ... The principle that psychological predicates which apply only to human beings (or other animals) as wholes cannot intelligibly be applied to their parts, such as the brain, we shall call 'the mereological principle' in neuroscience." ( Bennett& Hacker, 2003, P. 73)]

One last thing (a coda, perhaps). You write of your brain telling you to be attracted. This is another mistake. Being attracted is not something subject to imperative command. I can tell my daughter until I am blue in the face to be attracted to that lovely young fellow with the nice manners and personal fortune; of course this would be to no avail. (She will still fall for the handsome penniless lothario with the dark eyes and foul mouth.)

Even if you could make sense of your brain telling you to be attracted to so-and-so even if you tell yourself to be so attracted it would make no difference. Attraction just happens, or not, as the case may be. (Note which may be quite important for you understanding stuff like all this, hhh333hhh this is a conceptual fact; it is about what 'attraction' means, or which is the same, it is about what attraction is.)

Any clearer now?

[The challenge about 'gender identity' still stands, I note. I quarreled with your claim, hhh333hhh that everyone has such a thing, recall, and asked if anyone has a way of detecting its presence. Any offers? -- The relevance of souls, brains, homunculi and mereology to gender identity is probably evident, but anyway if not, I leave it as an exercise.]

hhh333hhh · 04/04/2022 15:16

@wasibat

[The challenge about 'gender identity' still stands, I note. I quarreled with your claim, hhh333hhh that everyone has such a thing, recall, and asked if anyone has a way of detecting its presence. Any offers? -- The relevance of souls, brains, homunculi and mereology to gender identity is probably evident, but anyway if not, I leave it as an exercise.]

NancyDrawed earlier in this thread informed us that Elaine Miller has given good reasons for believing that gender identity not only exists but is immutable. The reason why NancyDrawed told us this is because she believes that someone can't have a gender identity opposite to their birth sex. She wants to refute the ideas of the trans lobby.

I didn't claim that everyone has a gender identity, just as I don't claim that everyone has a sexual orientation. I agree with NancyDrawed that there is gender identity but I disagree with her that it is immutable.

If it is really true that an old person who develops dementia will (at least sometimes) revert to the gender identity appropriate to their biological sex, and then become distressed because their altered bodies don't match their current identity, then that is pretty much proof that gender identity does exist.

If gender identity was not real then someone with dementia would lose interest in their gender identity and not worry about it at all.,

In addition to this a scientist can tell with some degree of certainty from a brain scan if someone is trans.

wasibat · 04/04/2022 18:14

[quote hhh333hhh]@wasibat

[The challenge about 'gender identity' still stands, I note. I quarreled with your claim, hhh333hhh that everyone has such a thing, recall, and asked if anyone has a way of detecting its presence. Any offers? -- The relevance of souls, brains, homunculi and mereology to gender identity is probably evident, but anyway if not, I leave it as an exercise.]

NancyDrawed earlier in this thread informed us that Elaine Miller has given good reasons for believing that gender identity not only exists but is immutable. The reason why NancyDrawed told us this is because she believes that someone can't have a gender identity opposite to their birth sex. She wants to refute the ideas of the trans lobby.

I didn't claim that everyone has a gender identity, just as I don't claim that everyone has a sexual orientation. I agree with NancyDrawed that there is gender identity but I disagree with her that it is immutable.

If it is really true that an old person who develops dementia will (at least sometimes) revert to the gender identity appropriate to their biological sex, and then become distressed because their altered bodies don't match their current identity, then that is pretty much proof that gender identity does exist.

If gender identity was not real then someone with dementia would lose interest in their gender identity and not worry about it at all.,

In addition to this a scientist can tell with some degree of certainty from a brain scan if someone is trans.[/quote]
Thank you again for your response, hhh333hhh.

Look:

hhh333hhh Sat 26-Mar-22 13:46:57: "Everyone has a sexual orientation and everyone has a gender identity." (Page 2)

hhh333hhh Mon 04-Apr-22 15:16:28: "I didn't claim that everyone has a gender identity, just as I don't claim that everyone has a sexual orientation." (Page3)

-- Hmm. I am not sure what is going on here, hhh333hhh, but it is interesting you mention dementia. I wonder. Perhaps you might suggest one of your carers has a look at this (if none of them has already): Useful NHS link for carers

[Please do not be scared or worried about this, hhh333hhh. Many people are able to live active, fulfilling lives, even as they suffer from problems with their memory concomitant on the ageing process. ( Of course you may just be playing a game here. Who knows? ... Anyway, help is available if you need it.)]

Revenant à nos moutons: ... I recall, hhh333hhh, the challenge to offer a way of detecting the presence of gender identity. I notice you have chosen not to respond directly to that challenge.

You do claim, however, " ... a scientist can tell with some degree of certainty from a brain scan if someone is trans." I say this claim is false.

It is a simple matter for you to confute me here. Scientists publish their results in scientific journals. Journals in their turn check, usually by a process of peer review, that the results are at least prima facie reliable, then publish online so people can link to these results and check for themselves.

To show I am wrong and you are right it will suffice you name a scientist (or group of scientists) with published results showing how a brain scan indicated with some certainty whether a subject was trans. Let us know the journal this result was published in; give us an internet link so we can read the results for ourselves.

Or simply post the link to this published research, hhh333hhh.

Over to you.

[You might be surprised, hhh333hhh , to have me tell you I really do hope you are right about this, and I am wrong. Why? -- Because such a test for being trans would obviate once and for all, and in a single stroke, any necessity for self-ID with its consequent difficulties.

Sadly, though, I fear you are wrong about this, just as you are (or were? -- have you changed your mind?) about the existence of gender identity. There is no such thing as this latter, after all.]

Phobiaphobic · 04/04/2022 18:54

It's a type of body dysmorphia, like anorexia, which we rightly see as an illness as it can ruin your health and dramatically shorten your life. As can gender dysphoria. The main difference in the case of gender dysphoria, it's the medical interventions for gender that will ruin your health and dramatically shorten your life.

Cockblockingcowboy · 04/04/2022 22:15

Grief lasting longer than 12 months has recently been defined as a mental illness... one of my young children recently died after suffering an untreatable cancer and I am not allowed to be sad after the death of my child for longer than a year without it being classified as a mental illness.

How on earth could I possibly be expected to keep my grief into a tidy 12 month period?!

And yet someone with gender dysphoria does not meet the criteria of a mental illness and is applauded as brave and strong!! Madness

ApplesinmyPocket · 05/04/2022 09:24

their sexed bodies tell them their sex.

Exactly this. This whole thing of 'gender identity' is only possible if you live in a society where there's loads of baggage already - gendered names, clothes, stereotypes. If you lived on an island where no-one wore clothes and no-one had ever heard of 'transgender' everyone would know which type of human they were just by looking at themselves - the type with these parts, which grows, births and breastfeeds babies, or the type with that bit which delivers the seeds.

It would literally be the only way to tell, so sod 'there's something in our brains that tells us if we are male and female'.

Neverreturntoathread · 05/04/2022 09:39

@DelurkingLawyer

1) to make the T appear to align with the LGB (much harder if three are sexualities and one is a mental health issue).
  1. to pave the way for unrestricted affirmative treatment. If it is a mental health condition/disorder/illness, that leaves the door open for treatment rather than affirmation (we don’t affirm anorexics or people with body integrity identify disorder)

  2. to decouple obtaining a GRC from any kind of objective diagnosis by reference to specific diagnostic criteria, of a specified condition.

This.
Childrenofthestones · 05/04/2022 10:40

Bang on the money.

Childrenofthestones · 05/04/2022 10:44

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Political lobbying.
My post above a reply to was to Ereshkigs post . (In a senior moment I pressed reply instead of quote) Anyway spot on. Just follow the money.
hhh333hhh · 05/04/2022 16:21

If someone is not attracted to either men or women you could say that is their sexual orientation or you could say they don't have a sexual orientation.

If someone doesn't care if they male or female you could say that is their gender identity or you could say they don't have a gender identity.

For evidence of consistent patterns of brain structures that could be used to identify transsexuals see this www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/transgender-brain-2016.pdf

I have copied the conclusions below

Conclusions
^Overall, invivo MRI studies indicate that the main morphological
parameters of the brain (ICV, GM,WM, and CSF) are congruent
with their natal sex in untreated homosexual MtFs. However,
some cortical regions show feminine volume and thickness and it
should be underscored that CTh presents an F[M morphological
pattern. Nevertheless, with respect to CTh, this feminine cortical
pattern is not the same as the one shown by control females (compare Fig. 2a and b). On the other hand, the main white matter fascicles in MtFs are demasculinized, while others are still masculine (Fig. 3a). Moreover, most of the differences appear to be
located in the right hemisphere. So far, the studies on the white
matter, like those above on gray matter, strongly suggest that
MtFs have their own brain phenotype that mainly affects the right
hemisphere.^

This doesn't mean that there is a 'test for being trans'. Although it is possible to predict which scans belong to a trans person well above chance that doesn't mean it is 100% reliable. And I don't believe in self-ID anyway.

LangClegsInSpace · 05/04/2022 19:09

There was a case where a baby boy lost his penis. His parents were advised to raise him as a girl. There was some 'corrective' surgery. However when he (or she) hit puberty then he identified very strongly as a boy and eventually his parents had to tell him the truth about his situation.

Nothing about that poor kid's childhood equated to being raised 'as a girl'. He, along with his brother, was raised as a sadistic sexual medical experiment by John Money. Both brothers took their own lives.

I wish people would stop wheeling this case out. The only thing it proves is how badly child abuse can fuck you up for life. It feels incredibly ghoulish and disrespectful to me that people still use it as a talking point.

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/04/2022 19:22

@LittleWhingingWoman

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

But I would imagine that most people still see it as a mental illness - what qualifies it not to be?

Because being transgender is not a mental illness, just a feature, for some, of the rich tapestry of being human. Society is learning that, just as it had to with different expressions of sexuality.