Why was gender dysphoria changed from being a mental illness?

[LittleWhingingWoman]

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

But I would imagine that most people still see it as a mental illness - what qualifies it not to be?

Are transvestites mentally ill? In my opinion no, and nor should their personal eccentricity or kink alter their status in relation to their legal sex

But the issue is 'legal sex' can be changed with a GRC but now with self ID even that is pointless, so women and children are being forced to participate in their kink because it involves access to female spaces.

Their status should be based on their biological sex, which can never change.

There can't be one diagnosis because the ridiculous umbrella that Ruth Hunt formulated covers a broad range of people.

For instance - what do these two have in common?

A 13 year old female who does not feel comfortable in her body is essentially normal. If she fixates on the discomfort and it becomes a dysphoria, then she's trans? Not just finding it all a bit weird that her body's doing stuff and she's getting ogled and she's got sexual feelings that she doesn't know what to do about and porn and who'd want to be a woman nowadays?

and

A male in his 50s who is at the top of his career, mortgage paid off, pension sorted, kids grown, wife to be a service human, he's found his "tribe" online and his fetish for wearing his M+S period pants has escalated, and he starts "dressing" openly in the house, then that doesn't cut it for him so he "dresses" outside, then at work, then he's brave and stunning as he always knew himself to be.

Nothing. They've got nothing in common.

One's probably neurodiverse, or traumatised, or gay or overwhelmed. The other has made wanking a lifestyle.

Some definitions would be quite good for trans care, really.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

There can't be one diagnosis because the ridiculous umbrella that Ruth Hunt formulated covers a broad range of people.

For instance - what do these two have in common?

A 13 year old female who does not feel comfortable in her body is essentially normal. If she fixates on the discomfort and it becomes a dysphoria, then she's trans? Not just finding it all a bit weird that her body's doing stuff and she's getting ogled and she's got sexual feelings that she doesn't know what to do about and porn and who'd want to be a woman nowadays?

and

A male in his 50s who is at the top of his career, mortgage paid off, pension sorted, kids grown, wife to be a service human, he's found his "tribe" online and his fetish for wearing his M+S period pants has escalated, and he starts "dressing" openly in the house, then that doesn't cut it for him so he "dresses" outside, then at work, then he's brave and stunning as he always knew himself to be.

Nothing. They've got nothing in common.

One's probably neurodiverse, or traumatised, or gay or overwhelmed. The other has made wanking a lifestyle.

Some definitions would be quite good for trans care, really.

Indeed. And how bloody naive did all those people have to be to not imagine that the laws created for transsexuals would not be taken advantage of by transvestites.

There can't be one diagnosis because the ridiculous umbrella that Ruth Hunt formulated covers a broad range of people.

The trans umbrella is much older than that.

Here's an early version from 1994.

The adoption of 'trans' or 'transgender' instead of transsexual and transvestite was a deliberate way of removing the distinction between these terms.

Well, look at that, @OldCrone. Thanks.

I'm off to google a rabbit warren...

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Well, look at that, *@OldCrone*. Thanks.

I'm off to google a rabbit warren...

There are some interesting links in this post by @LangClegsInSpace from a thread from last year:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a4248152-A-message-from-a-trans-friend-International-Day-Against-Homophobia-Transphobia-and-Biphobia?msgid=107519766

On the same thread, LangClegsInSpace also posted these screenshots from 'Pressing Matters', a book written by Christine Burns who talks about the language used by the group campaigning for the original GRA.

Everyone has a sexual orientation and everyone has a gender identity. We don't really know where these come from. The three main ideas are that there is a genetic component, exposure to various hormones in the womb or early childhood experiences. We may never know which of these or a combination of these is the cause, but in a way it doesn't matter.

It seems that there is something in our brains which tells us if we are male or female. Not everyone has this, some people don't identify with either male or female. You have to ask how people can be helped to lead happy lives. Conversion is not an option.

I agree that if a teenage girl suddenly decides that she is trans, never having identified with males before, that is a problem. There is an increase in the number of these. I also agree that girls should be able to behave in ways that traditionally have been ascribed to boys without anyone considering it to be masculine behaviour.

Everyone has a sexual orientation and everyone has a gender identity

Everyone has a sexual orientation. Based on the sex of the people they are attracted to. Clue is in the name.

The only people who have a 'gender identity' are the those who believe in gender ideology.

Gender is regressive social sex role stereotypes. A woman is a female, not someone with a special innate feminine essence, or a performance of femininity.

Every cell in our body is sexed. The only way to be a woman is to have a female body.

It seems that there is something in our brains which tells us if we are male or female. Not everyone has this, some people don't identify with either male or female

What utter horseshit. The old lady brain nonsense. It makes no difference if someone doesn't 'identify as male or female', their sexed bodies tell them their sex.

I don't 'identify' as male or female. I don't 'feel' female. I am female.

If it’s not an illness then it shouldn’t be treated on the NHS.

hhh333hhh, define “gender identity”, without recourse to dated sexist stereotypes.
And for the record, I most definitely do not have one. I am female purely by dint of being born in a female body with XX chromosomes.

Money.

This is a billion dollar industry.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Political lobbying.

Yes, this.

Note: We don't use DSM in the UK, we use ICD, where 'gender incongruence' is now listed as a sexual health condition (although it still has a dual listing under mental health).

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f90875286

It's also worth noting that the diagnosis excludes paraphilic disorders (see pics)

What utter horseshit. The old lady brain nonsense. It makes no difference if someone doesn't 'identify as male or female', their sexed bodies tell them their sex.

I am not saying that men's and women's brains differ in abilities such as mathematical prowess, what I am saying is that there is something in our brains which tells us what to be attracted to and our gender identity other than plain psychology.

Gender identity is something usually present at a young age. Seeing a group of girls interacting with each other and seeing a group of boys interacting with each other a child will usually consider that they belong in one group or the other. They will identify with one group or the other. They will say "I am like them".

Upbringing will play a part in that. A boy that is brought up with girls may feel differently from most boys. However, there is something else going on besides, something neurological and not just psychlological.

There was a case where a baby boy lost his penis. His parents were advised to raise him as a girl. There was some 'corrective' surgery. However when he (or she) hit puberty then he identified very strongly as a boy and eventually his parents had to tell him the truth about his situation.

If gender identity was merely about how you were raised or how you see your own body then this would not happen.

@hhh333hhh

What utter horseshit. The old lady brain nonsense. It makes no difference if someone doesn't 'identify as male or female', their sexed bodies tell them their sex.

I am not saying that men's and women's brains differ in abilities such as mathematical prowess, what I am saying is that there is something in our brains which tells us what to be attracted to and our gender identity other than plain psychology.

Gender identity is something usually present at a young age. Seeing a group of girls interacting with each other and seeing a group of boys interacting with each other a child will usually consider that they belong in one group or the other. They will identify with one group or the other. They will say "I am like them".

Upbringing will play a part in that. A boy that is brought up with girls may feel differently from most boys. However, there is something else going on besides, something neurological and not just psychlological.

There was a case where a baby boy lost his penis. His parents were advised to raise him as a girl. There was some 'corrective' surgery. However when he (or she) hit puberty then he identified very strongly as a boy and eventually his parents had to tell him the truth about his situation.

If gender identity was merely about how you were raised or how you see your own body then this would not happen.

No.

A boy that lost his penis is still a boy, knew he was male and was very unhappy being raised as a girl. It is the opposite to your theory.

But in upside down world everything supports trans people. Because everything else is transphobic. Right?

Gender identity is something usually present at a young age

No such thing. Gender identity isn't some special innate magic. It's made up bollocks by the trans lobby. A religious belief of a tiny minority. Don't push that shit on the rest of us.

Doesn't work for those like Lia Thomas who was happy enough with his male body and being a man, perfectly fine about standing around a pool in speedos so clearly no dysphoria, our of nowhere suddenly has a 'woman gender identity' when he wants to win swimming medals.

Then there's the girls who have no issue or confusion about their sex at all until they hit puberty and discover their sexual orientation or suffer social contagion.

It's just fantasy. Sometimes to hide from reality or trauma, creating new persona, sometimes to cheat in sports and sometimes because males watch too much porn.

Fuck all innate about it.

Reading with intrigue

Gender identity is a concept, biology is a fact.

It would be more accurate to call it "gendered stereotypes"

Most of us reject gender stereotypes generally. Others become obsessed with them, thinking they aren't fitting in to society if they don't conform to the expected roles.

it is because it is not an illness, it can cause mental illness (e.g. depression) and it can be caused by illness. Doing it this way allows a psychiatrist assess where intervention and what type of intervention is required - if it is caused by underlying conditions they will treat those, if it is not causing severe illness they will treat with counselling. It is supposed to stop the self id, agp etc transitioning. In short it is not the issue.

it can be caused by illness

What sort of illness causes gender dysphoria? Can you post some links? I can't see anything about that on the NHS website.

@OldCrone

it can be caused by illness

What sort of illness causes gender dysphoria? Can you post some links? I can't see anything about that on the NHS website.

A psychiatrist dealing with someone with GD will look to rule out other conditions, body dysmorphia, schizophrenia and others. It is mentioned in the DSM.

A psychiatrist dealing with someone with GD will look to rule out other conditions, body dysmorphia, schizophrenia and others. It is mentioned in the DSM.

Ruling out other conditions doesn't explain how gender dysphoria can be 'caused by illness' which is what you said.

Everyone has a sexual orientation and everyone has a gender identity

Saying that everyone has a gender identity is akin to saying everyone has a religious belief.

I don't believe in the ideology therefore I don't give myself a gender label. Other people do believe in it and therefore like to give themselves a gender identity label. I respect their right to label themselves, but they don't get to label me and tell me that I have a belief in something that I do not (it would be like someone telling me that I must be a Muslim if I don't believe in a Christian god)

• or rather assigning a religion to me when I say I do not follow one

@elferian

it is because it is not an illness, it can cause mental illness (e.g. depression) and it can be caused by illness. Doing it this way allows a psychiatrist assess where intervention and what type of intervention is required - if it is caused by underlying conditions they will treat those, if it is not causing severe illness they will treat with counselling. It is supposed to stop the self id, agp etc transitioning. In short it is not the issue.

So it can cause mental illness such as depression (so the mental illness should be treated), and something that looks like gender dysphoria (but isn't) can be caused by other conditions such as body dysmorphia and schizophrenia, so those conditions should be treated.

But what about gender dysphoria in the absence of other mental illness such as depression or schizophrenia? Does it exist? If so, what is it exactly if it is not an illness?