Boris has nailed colours to mast

[Ridcully82]

On gender transition at PMQs:" biology overwhelmingly important", preceded by urging respect for those feeling they need to transition. Sounded calm, respectful,and kinda where we were on course before the TRA actions.

@Rosit

Do you not worry - especially those of you expressing horror at agreeing with BoJo/Tories - that the fact that your view is shared by him and the tories is, perhaps, a signifier that you might be on the wrong side of history here?

The "wrong side of history" has become another of those stock mantras, that are supposed to frighten people into not thinking. History is a record told by those who hold the power to tell the story. It does not denote the successful and progressive march of time. Human history is leading to climate change - do you support that as "the right side of history"? GC women are making arguments about encouraging people uncomfortable in their bodies to find ways of accepting and loving themselves, rather than becoming lifelong profit for drug companies. There's a narrative worth telling. A history worth recording. Away with your thought terminating cliches.

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats

I find it very odd that people here are happy to vote for someone who does not support misogyny being made a hate crime. www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58800328.amp Also as an MP, he has always abstained from Westminster votes on abortion. But this is clearly a man who is to be trusted & deserves women's votes?

Lots of women, including feminists, do not think that hate crime legislation is a good idea.

And women are actually more likely than men to take a more pro-life stance on abortion.

I think maybe you are working from an incorrect premise.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

To be honest I don't like the way people who vote conservative and ministers are villainised. It's this whole good versus evil narrative that is really unpalatable.

See for me, the seed this planted was that I was doing very black and white tribal thinking. I wasn't looking at the nuance of why people believed differently to me. Same with Brexit. I'm ashamed to say that I viewed anyone who voted leave as a rcaist ignorant. And I'm sure that was some people's motivation. But a lot of people had good reasons for thinking being put of the EU was preferable, and some of them were even selfless. Like people who wanted more control on foreign labour so people from other countries weren't explored into working for less than minimum wage in appalling conditions and English people weren't being overlooked as possiblities to be trained and do the jobs.

At the time I saw it as good versus evil but actually reading others' views without resorting to calling them gammons has meant I understand more that they are real people with real concerns and not evil selfish privileged prats.

And I have listened to gender ideology and I do get there's a sense of longing and sadness for wanting to belong; yet I can recognise this without wanting to harm the women who will be excluded by inviting gender ideology into policy.

Anyway, my point is, that instead of feeling sad that I can't vote Labour, I need to stop demonising myself or others for voting Conservative if they feel it's the right thing to do. I need to accept they are motivated by other things and not just simply evil.

Sadly, I can't come out and say any of this in real life because of the risk, which is a shame as I realised how intolerant I was in the guise of tolerance.

A wise women once told me we vote for the path of life we're on. At the time I dismissed her as a invisible middle aged woman.

I like to think I'm working towards being a little wiser now.

One of the best posts I have seen for ages.

Life is not black and white . ..

There are plenty of philanthropists who vote Tory .

@littlbrowndog thank you for that link about the petition - I hadn't seen the update.

It's absolutely astounding the situation up here - it seems so beyond rationality as to be ridiculous. Police Scotland insisting that someone who has raped women with his penis has to be recorded as a woman because he says so. Equality Impact Statements filled out which consider only one of the 9 protected characteristics. Research showing that men are self iding into the female prison estate to gain sexual access to women ignored by the SPS. The word woman removed from maternity policies. And the Scottish Government wasting £150,000 of taxpayers money to defend their unlawful redefining of the word woman.

It's utterly staggering.

Yes I really relate to that post too. Brought up that left were “good” and Tories “bad” but the issues are so complex and diverse now and the way the left wing parties have rushed to throw away womens rights has frankly sickened me. I cannot in all conscience vote for them.

Yes you can vote for them. They don't eat babies (raw).

My local MP (at present) is Duffield

Duffield may yet end up representing the conservatives. There have been rumbles about her being invited to the back benches.

And whilst Duffield herself gets it, I read on here she is surrounded by gender zealots in her team, certainly that seemed to be the flavour talking to people who helped her to campaign. I've also seen numerous posts where she's been sent letters and received no reply so I expect even her underlings have their own agenda.

I really hope she jumps ship, she's been treated appallingly by Labour and owes them no loyalty. She's also a moderate left voice so I think she'd do well in a conservative government shifting to a more central position.

My reason for pointing it out is to show that Starmer isn't lying, or stupid.

Ah I see. No we do disagree on this. I don't think he believes a word of the gender nonsense but will repeat it because he's been told it's progressive but he parrots TWAW with zero conviction. He is not stupid which is why I don't think he believes what he says. He knows it's wrong to incarcerate women with rapists, however they identify, because he knows they are men.

FOJN - You think he'll row it back eventually, then?

Some hilariously England-centric posts in this long thread. You want to try working out the political situation here in Scotland. (Spoiler: Nicola and the SNP are not the progressive types you probably think they are if you’re basing your view on simplistic Guardian coverage).

I’m under no illusions: I know that the Tories are the party of Nokes, Blunt, Miller et al as well as the party of Badenoch and Truss. But all this “I could never vote Tory” is a bit from up here. Careful what you wish for.

@99pronouns

So in May how should I vote?

I believe in biology. Personally this is my no1 interest/issue politically because I think we are such a crucial generation regarding women's rights.

My local MP (at present) is Duffield, I usually vote Labour or Lib Dem.
The area has always been blue until Duffield.

As it is a council election you should vote for any councillor you like who appears to agree with you on this. That is most likely to be a Tory which is what Duffield's seat (Canterbury) usually votes anyway. There are obvious exceptions, I would struggle to vote for TWAW Caroline Nokes or TWAW Penny Mordaunt were it a General Election.

@MidsomerMurmurs

Some hilariously England-centric posts in this long thread. You want to try working out the political situation here in Scotland. (Spoiler: Nicola and the SNP are not the progressive types you probably think they are if you’re basing your view on simplistic Guardian coverage).

I’m under no illusions: I know that the Tories are the party of Nokes, Blunt, Miller et al as well as the party of Badenoch and Truss. But all this “I could never vote Tory” is a bit from up here. Careful what you wish for.

Yes I first starting voting Conservative in Scotland to stop Indyref2.

'I would struggle to vote for TWAW Caroline Nokes or TWAW Penny Mordaunt were it a General Election.'

We should crowdfund a sensible human to stand against Nokes as an independent. Any good GC women near the New Forest?

Johnson has found an issue he believes Labour are weak on. One which he believe may swing a fair few votes his was. And, tbh, if he follows it up by scrapping Annex B and forcing a change in guidance for prisons he may well swing my vote. And I refuse to feel guilty for voting in favour of women’s rights.

I will not leave the left. But the left has left me.

twitter.com/a_v_stephen/status/1294164710577897472?s=21

Same with Brexit. I'm ashamed to say that I viewed anyone who voted leave as a rcaist ignorant. And I'm sure that was some people's motivation. But a lot of people had good reasons for thinking being put of the EU was preferable, and some of them were even selfless. Like people who wanted more control on foreign labour so people from other countries weren't explored into working for less than minimum wage in appalling conditions and English people weren't being overlooked as possiblities to be trained and do the jobs.

I have had the very opposite experience with Brexit.
I started off defending people who voted Leave and insisting it wasn't because they were racist. Then I listened to what the leave voters I know were actually saying, almost all of them were parroting racist lies, really horrible completely unambiguous racism. Stuff about Romanian people all just throwing their rubbish in the street, Polish people stealing our benefits blaming the EU for Islamic terrorism. I also followed Vote Leave for years now (they've gone very quiet recently) I'm sure this has coloured my view because of all the racism on there but it was also mirrored in the real world I lived in.

If your MP is Rosie Duffield, vote Labour. We need her voice in Parliament

@MsTSwift

What do we do?! I surely can’t vote Tory but they are the only ones showing sense on this.

Many of us feel the exact same.

Agree re Rosie Duffield, Labour has treated her wrongly.

To be honest most of the people who helped me see they had numerous good reasons for voting thusly were mumsnetters. I think an anonymous forum helps magnify those voices because actually, even from seeing this thread alone, you can see there's a stigma about not being left or progressive. Just look at us all agonising over voting for the only thing standing in the way of the destruction of women's rights. Moderate leave voters weren't going to be shouting about it on social media or down the pub. They just quietly did what they did at the polls.

Previously I had based my opinion of them on people on my other social media. They would say horrific things like we should gun down refugees in boats at Dover. So yes, of course that view is out there.

However, my point is it's not good versus evil or black and white. There aren't racists and saviours only, there is a whole load of grey spectrum and people from both sides will fall into the black and the white.

That said, I strongly believe in safeguarding and that is the one world that has no room for shades of grey. And most people who work with the vulnerable accept that. Male teachers don't publicly demand access to undressing female children because without it they interpret it as a slight on them; nursery workers don't bewail lack of trust because they have to stick to their ratios, scout leaders understand a CRB is not a personal judgement.

@Alltheprettyseahorses

The rights and existence of half the population is the most fundamental red line imaginable. I'm not actually going to vote Tory, I live in one of Labour's safest seats so no point, but nothing would possess me to vote Labour.

I also think we need to examine the rhetoric that Labour will look after people more. If you look at the 2019 Labour manifesto there was not a single penny more for welfare etc than the Tories had. Current shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves has a long history of hardline and inflammatory statements concerning people on low incomes. Labour would have cut vat on fuel to help mitigate rocketing costs, total circa £80 pa, but complained the Tory packages of £200 plus another £150 for most wasn't enough, no doubt terrified in case they didn't make enough noise to bury their own much smaller offer. There are many other things like projected minimum wage which also fall short of Tory plans. Easy wins like the £20 UC reversal are ignored and Labour had nothing to do with Marcus Rashgord's FSM campaign apart from trying to claim the credit when it was sorted. Please don't insult me by telling me Labour care more when they don't actually give a toss, I'm not stupid.

Yeah, it's really important that this kind of analysis doesn't get lost. There can be a tendency to assume that of course labour will be better on certain issues, but it's not always the case. Sometimes they are very similar, or the approaches are different but both arguable with pros and cons, sometimes one side clearly seems better. You can also get weird reversals, like on things like globalism and free trade, where the parties over the years seem to have almost flipped views.

That's not to say that anyone may nor prefer one platform over the other but it's best not to assume which is better in a given area.

Our city is Lib Dem / Tory neck and neck currently Lib Dem. A quick google shows our mp staunch TWAW she has tweeted that as there have been relatively few attacks on women by trans people self I’d is A Ok 🙄. Tory it is then.

@bellinisurge

If your MP is Rosie Duffield, vote Labour. We need her voice in Parliament

But she's been silenced so how useful is her voice in the Labour party?

Honestly, she's got so many people working against her I can't see how she can do any good, or even hold on to her seat.

@MsTSwift

Our city is Lib Dem / Tory neck and neck currently Lib Dem. A quick google shows our mp staunch TWAW she has tweeted that as there have been relatively few attacks on women by trans people self I’d is A Ok 🙄. Tory it is then.

I wonder exactly why it is that people are happy to observe females are less likely to attack TW than males, but then walk all over this 'kinder' half of the population anyway, in exactly the way that men often do?

Men succeed in keeping non-conforming males out of their spaces just by a minority of males being violent towards them and making it too dangerous for them to enter. Women become the default 'safe' option for anyone not safe in the men's toilets.

FOJN - You think he'll row it back eventually, then?

I honestly couldn't say. It would be hard to row back from something like this but his credibility is shot so I'm not sure what he has to lose. I'm surprised and disappointed with the way he's handled this. Regardless of how you vote we need a credible and effective opposition and we don't appear to have that right now.

@PoshPyjamas

Labour can fuck off, I'll be voting Tory because of this issue.

Well said and same here @PoshPyjamas 👏👏👏