Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 4

748 replies

Whatamesssss · 21/03/2022 15:07

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

Thread three, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507443-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-3

Abbreviations:
BC = Ben Cooper QC, counsel for
MF = Maya Forstater - Claimant
AP = Anya Palmer, assisting BC
OD = Olivia Dobbie, counsel for the respondents
EJ = Employment judge, leading the panel
Panel = any one of the 3 members

CGDE (CGD Europe) – Respondent 1

CGD = Centre for Global Development – Respondent 2

LE = Luke Easley, Vice president for HR and operations at CGD, first witness for CGD
AG = Amanda Glassman, Chief Operating Officer, Senior Fellow and Board Secretary of CGD and a Trustee of CGD(Europe), second witness for CGD
MP = Mark Plant, Chief Operating Officer of CGD Europe, third witness for CGD
MA = Masood Ahmed, President of CGD and Chair of the Board of CGDE – Respondent 3, fourth witness for CGD

EM = Ellen MacKenzie, an off-stage character at CGD, involved in much that went on.

Maya's website has lots of relevant information and is collating the live tweets.
www.hiyamaya.net

twitter.com/tribunaltweets is the account to look at for the live tweets. Plus some live posting and discussion on these threads.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

They will send you pin number and a link to log in to the tribunal.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
similarminimer · 23/03/2022 23:01

I have an excellent idea to increase fairness in judicial proceedings and therefore transform jurisprudence.

The swapsies ruling - so the counsels do it all again on Monday but representing the other side.

Will require some investment - initially doubling court times, delays and costs, but by overall reduction in appeals and just saying stuff for the sake of it / i think it will reap benefits in approx 34 years

PaleBlueMoonlight · 23/03/2022 23:02

Indeed, does anyone know anything about it? I wonder which barrister is representing her in court.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 23/03/2022 23:04

Sorry, that was responding to Eresh (though your idea is great similar)

similarminimer · 23/03/2022 23:14

@palebluemoonlight my first Swapsist! Thank you. See you outside Royal Courts of Justice on Monday - byo banner

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 23/03/2022 23:16

After making the posts on her private Facebook account, Farmor’s head teacher was passed an anonymous complaint about the posts, which described them as “homophobic and prejudiced to the LGBT community”.

Higgs was suspended and an investigation into her conduct launched. The process culminated in a meeting at a hotel, in which it is alleged she was subjected to six hours of “intimidating” questioning and her posts being compared to “pro-Nazi” views.

What? It's difficult to assess the matter without the bundle we had access to for Maya's case. However, if the facts in the Higgs v Farmor school EAT appeal are accurate and as described, and Higgs' barrister is presenting this appropriately, this is deplorable and deeply worrying.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2022 23:46

Imagine that your personal Facebook account could be maliciously reported to your employer by someone you'd friended years ago and forgotten about. And two posts would be acceptable to sack you summarily for, because of the tone of these posts you shared only with friends, despite your beliefs being protected under the EA.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2022 23:48

someone you'd friended years ago and forgotten about

This is my suggestion as to who contacted the school, not actually the known facts.

yourhairiswinterfire · 24/03/2022 00:14

The 'judgment with reasons' from Higgs v Farmor's School here.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f86f3e3e90e07415b7c9de5/Mrs_K_Higgs_V_Farmor_s_School_-1401264.2019-_Judgment.pdf

If I'm understanding correctly (I'm so tired) it looks like this judge found Maya's beliefs being found to be NWORIADS ''strange'' and went the opposite way, saying K Higgs beliefs satisfied the final test in Grainger and were protected under the EA (this was before Maya won her appeal, I'm surprised I hadn't seen this anywhere).

Looks like the school argued they didn't sack her for her beliefs, but because she breached their code of conduct re social media use.

Higgs argued that her account was private, and therefore being punished for posts breached her article 8 rights. Court said she had over a 100 followers, including parents of children at the school where she worked, and had no ''real expectation of privacy''.

52.There was nothing to prevent anyone taking screenshots of Mrs Higgs’ postings and circulating them more widely, as Mrs Higgs accepted. The fact is that anyone posting on such a platform as Facebook effectively loses control of their posts, at least when a large number of people can access them. In all the circumstances, we did not consider she had any real expectation of “privacy” in relation to matters that she had chosen to publish in this way. The School was fully entitled to take action in relation to the posts.

Higgs claimed all of the following was harassment:

-The disciplinary investigation.
-The suspension
-The investigation meeting and questioning of her
-Inaccurate notes of meetings, requiring work by her to correct
-The investigation report incorporated the inaccurate note of the meeting of 30 October, which she was not given the opportunity to correct
-The investigation report, which went before the disciplinary and appeal panels, incorporated Facebook posts which formed no part of the case against her.

  • The disciplinary hearing on 19 December, including its length, the number of people involved for the School and the comments made by them
-The summary dismissal -The contents of the dismissal letter -The appeal hearing including its length, the number of people involved for the School -The rejection of her appeal

The court disagreed:

75. In short, this was an unexceptional disciplinary process. Whilst it clearly would have been unpleasant for Mrs Higgs to experience it, we were not satisfied that the conduct had either the purpose or effect of violating her dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for her.
76. Our conclusion therefore was that Mrs Higgs was not directly discriminated against on the ground of religion and nor was she harassed

Think para 65 is the most important:

  1. It is important to bear in mind that this was not a claim of unfair dismissal. We were not concerned to decide whether the School’s actions were reasonable or not. It might be contended that there was a different course of action the School could have taken, in the light of the position made clear by Mrs Higgs in the disciplinary process. Since she denied being homophobic or transphobic, a reasonable employer might have taken the view that justice would be served by her (or the School) making it clear that if anyone thought she held those views they had got “the wrong end of the stick” – that pupils and parents should not be concerned that she would demonstrate any sort of hostility to gay or trans pupils (or indeed gay or trans parents ).
oviraptor21 · 24/03/2022 08:03

On the above case, I see it says it's not an unfair dismissal case. Was it constructive/wrongful?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/03/2022 08:36

Yes I'm not sure of the grounds. It's difficult to tell what happened at the disciplinary meeting which led to her dismissal without hearing the evidence, for which she alleges harassment and the court acknowledge was "unpleasant but not exceptional", but reading between the lines it seems to me that because they considered part of her beliefs NWORIADS (though they stress her Christian rejection of same sex marriage is protected) and that's the part concerned by the messages which led to her losing her job, in the same way as with Maya they ruled out the claim mostly because of that alone. They make reference to Maya as NWORIADS as this was before her appeal.

I will be interested to read the judgement.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/03/2022 08:47

Sorry having read again winter is correct. They did go as far as saying that her disbelief in gender fluidity and her belief that sex could not be changed was WORIADS in contrast to Maya. So it comes down to the way in which she expressed herself (and I think she only shared other people's posts).

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 08:51

I'll be very interested in reading the judgment. On the surface of it it sounds like the court disregarded her right to say things that might seem offensive to some others.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/03/2022 08:52

Yes exactly.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/03/2022 08:54

Is there a decision re why the EAT allowed the appeal?

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 08:54

I'm just looking at the first judgment. Only on the first page and already the person who wrote this (assume the EJ?) sounds hostile in their own judgment to the claimant. 'Nothing special about this case.'

In contrast (not getting my hopes up) EJ Glennie was scrupulous about his language throughout. I think he's a clever man. Not sure about EJ Reed.

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 08:56

Reading on, apparently she said gender fluidity was 'a perverted vision'. That''s obviously strong language.

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 08:58

They had the disciplinary with seven school staff and just the claimant. The EJ 'could not see whose services should have been dispensed with.*

Grim.

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 08:59

This panel interrogated this woman for 5 hours. She said her children were hungry at home. They carried on. But the EJ has no problem with this.

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 09:00

The beliefs she contends she was discriminated against for were not strictly Christian beliefs. They were also GC beliefs.

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 09:01

The school contended that (as part of her claim of protected belief) lack of belief in gender fluidity and lack of belief that someone could change sex did not qualify as protected philosophical beliefs.

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 09:05

The EJ then goes to Forstater (first decision) and Mackereth, and concludes that, if the claimant relies on the ability to 'misgender', then that could amount to unlawful conduct, and would not attract protection.

But then points out this claimant said she 'loved everyone' and would not want to gratuitously upset them. Also points out that freedom of speech protections would be worthless if they didn't extend to opinions that upset some people (like 'sex is fixed at birth).

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 09:10

They then consider privacy, and say the school didn't invade her privacy.

Then whether it was direct discrimination, so whether it was her beliefs or the manifestation of her beliefs.

EJ calls her language in her FB posts 'florid and provocative'.

Concludes that the dismissal was not the result of her beliefs, but of a 'reasonable perception' that she held other beliefs (i.e. that she was homophobic and transphobic).

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 09:13

Sounds a bit weak (but not entirely without merit) to me.

It is not a reasonable conclusion that someone is homophobic because they oppose same-sex marriage (that is why that belief has protection under the EA).

It is not a reasonable conclusion that someone is transphobic because they think sex is fixed, or because they think gender fluidity has no basis in fact, or that they think it should not be taught to children as fact.

But when you start bringing 'perversity' (in its sexual sense, not its contrarian sense) into your language, and when you describe a subset of children as 'normal children' (with the implication that others are not 'normal'), and you do so under your own name, and you work at a school, it's ill-advised, isn't it?

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 24/03/2022 09:23

These first tier ETs sound like a bloody lottery.