I opened the can...

[AsTreesWalking]

...worms exited.
Yesterday morning I shared a quiz with some students. There was a question that quoted thus: 'I'm not going down that rabbit hole', and, 'it depends on the context' - what was it that these MPs would not define? My students could not think what it could be. So I told them 'A Woman'. They were most surprised. Then they realised and did a spectacular volte face. I pointed out their cognitive dissonance. I told them why I have a problem with self id, and about rapes in prisons.
They went to another member of staff, and today I was summoned to a member of SLT and told that they had said I was transphobic, and had upset them.
I have had to type up 'my version' of the conversation. How I wish I'd just skipped that question! I'm now afraid that my form will all decide that I am a dreadful person.
Why does wrong think on this topic trump all other evidence of a person's good will?
I refuse to lie to my students. I stand by what i said, It was all true. But I'm feeling afraid, and still shaking.

I'm sorry OP. I don't know why it's ok for someone to say TWAW & not ok for another person to say TW are not W. That's pretty reductive I know, but the middle ground here isn't neutral.

Thank you for doing this.

I think people are confused about what happened. A general quiz was compiled by someone else (sounds like a stealth terf) and OP sent it out and in the course of doing it with sixth formers in a discussion group gave the answer and there was a discussion about it. OP put the opposite side to the views the students espoused, which are also her own views.

Anyone who has a problem with it should be campaigning for trans lobby groups to stop giving one sided talks and advice in schools. Look at the much maligned CPS "hate crime" pack telling girls they could be prosecuted for objecting to males in their spaces. Thankfully withdrawn.

Male violence against women and girls is. Or a personal view. It is a fact.

The protection that single sex spaces give women and girls from male violence is not a personsal view. It is a fact.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think people are confused about what happened. A general quiz was compiled by someone else (sounds like a stealth terf) and OP sent it out and in the course of doing it with sixth formers in a discussion group gave the answer and there was a discussion about it. OP put the opposite side to the views the students espoused, which are also her own views.

Anyone who has a problem with it should be campaigning for trans lobby groups to stop giving one sided talks and advice in schools. Look at the much maligned CPS "hate crime" pack telling girls they could be prosecuted for objecting to males in their spaces. Thankfully withdrawn.

No one is confused. She didn't give the opposing view to add balance. According to her posts she gave her personal opinion.

Some posters on here are so focused on the subject (trans/female spaces etc) they are ignoring a teachers obligation to not offer their personal opinion.

I sincerely hope it all gets resolved swiftly next week for the OP, but by "opening the can" she's put herself in a difficult position.

Some people are actually confused because they think she wrote the quiz questions.

It is a fact to say 'a trans person is with a penis raped a woman in prison'.

It's a personal opinion to explain why you think self id is dangerous for women.

I agree with your viewpoint OP. You need to be careful how you frame it as a teacher.

@hm246

Thank you. We need more teachers like you

Agreed.

Some posters on here are so focused on the subject (trans/female spaces etc) they are ignoring a teachers obligation to not offer their personal opinion.

As do many teachers who take the opposite view.

@Christmas1988

You have to keep your opinions to yourself and be as neutral as possible. Your job is to teach not brainwash, open and non bias thinking only in the classroom. It’s up to students to make their own minds up.

Sorry, don’t agree, there are some topics and ideas that is is right and proper that teachers show a bias towards. It is not brainwashing to state an opinion about a personal opposition to racism, sexism, fascism to name three examples. And I think making it clear that there is an alternative, rational point of view based on reality and science to counter the thinkz/feelingz TRAlala that kids are being exposed to when their brains and bodies are in a state of flux.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Some posters on here are so focused on the subject (trans/female spaces etc) they are ignoring a teachers obligation to not offer their personal opinion.

As do many teachers who take the opposite view.

If they are taking the opposite view that's fine. But it's not fine to share that view with students. It cuts both ways and for multiple issues, not just this one.

Eg, the gov response to covid - it's fine to outline gov actions. It is not fine to praise or criticise those actions.

The same here. You can say there have been cases of assaults in women's prisons by men identifying as women. You cannot say self ID as a woman are entitled to go to a women's prison. Nor can you can self ID is wrong. All you can do is outline the facts. But even then you need to be careful you present a range of facts.

This is the balancing act teachers must be aware of for a whole host of topics/anything political. And i think quite rightly so. As a teacher you are influential. By knowing a teacher's opinion that can be persuasive in itself. We need to encourage young people to come to their own conclusions

Sorry, don’t agree, there are some topics and ideas that is is right and proper that teachers show a bias towards. It is not brainwashing to state an opinion about a personal opposition to racism, sexism, fascism to name three examples.

Great examples. All really demonstrates it's tricky for teachers to know when they can or cannot give their views. The examples you gave are fine though - it promotes "British values" which is actually a requirement of schools.

@Cottonfrenzie

*Sorry, don’t agree, there are some topics and ideas that is is right and proper that teachers show a bias towards. It is not brainwashing to state an opinion about a personal opposition to racism, sexism, fascism to name three examples.*

Great examples. All really demonstrates it's tricky for teachers to know when they can or cannot give their views. The examples you gave are fine though - it promotes "British values" which is actually a requirement of schools.

Surely emphasising that biology is real & misogyny is bad should be ok then?! 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

Surely emphasising that biology is real & misogyny is bad should be ok then?!

Of course it's fine to emphasise that. But let's be perfectly clear, the debate here is more nuanced than that whether you agree it should be or not.

Like it or not, this is a political issue. Therefore as a teacher you need to be careful how you approach it

I’m very interested to hear the nuanced view of biology is real & misogyny is bad

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

I’m very interested to hear the nuanced view of biology is real & misogyny is bad

Well this post is a great example of posters who are so fixed on the subject matter they are unwilling to see what im saying - it's nothing to do with the topic! It's everything to do with giving no opinions on political matters.

I'm not denying misogyny is bad or biology is real. I'm saying whether you, I or the many posters on this thread like it or not - the trans/women/self ID debate as outlined by the OP is contentious. Therefore it's not as simple as you say. It is a political issue whether you like it or not. Therefore giving personal opinions is inappropriate and could lead to you getting into bother at work.

But it's not fine to share that view with students

They do often share TWAW views with students though. That's the main point I'm making.

This is the balancing act teachers must be aware of for a whole host of topics/anything political. And i think quite rightly so. As a teacher you are influential. By knowing a teacher's opinion that can be persuasive in itself. We need to encourage young people to come to their own conclusions

Yes I agree with you.

The biggest fantasy in this whole issue is that it is nuanced and complex. It really isn’t.

Reality is not a political view point.

And at least in Britain the notion of the right dog women and girls to be protected from male violence is an accepted standard.

I've been tempted but have been a coward Bravo to you. I would be tempted to brazen it out by saying you were encouraging critical thought and was playing the devils advocate especially since it wasn't your quiz.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But it's not fine to share that view with students

They do often share TWAW views with students though. That's the main point I'm making.

This is the balancing act teachers must be aware of for a whole host of topics/anything political. And i think quite rightly so. As a teacher you are influential. By knowing a teacher's opinion that can be persuasive in itself. We need to encourage young people to come to their own conclusions

Yes I agree with you.

I don't know any teachers who share TWAW views. If they do they should also be careful. As I said it all cuts both ways. No personal opinions should be given.

@Movingonup22

The biggest fantasy in this whole issue is that it is nuanced and complex. It really isn’t.

Reality is not a political view point.

And at least in Britain the notion of the right dog women and girls to be protected from male violence is an accepted standard.

I see your point. I'm not saying you are wrong. But in reality this is a sensitive and political issue as it's controversial. It needs to be approached carefully. Just pretending it's not a current political/complex debate won't help and will likely end you up in some hot water as a teacher if you aren't careful.

I think while you have to swerve opinion politics you have done these students a service. This article form today's paper shows the worst gaslighting and perversion of justice that arises from not being able to accurately name adult human males.

"A hospital told the police that a patient could not have been raped because her alleged attacker was trans, the House of Lords has heard.

The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”. "

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/

Unions are not on women's side.

“We need to encourage young people to come to their own conclusions”.

For many young people the only place they get to hear persuasive arguments is when they are upstairs in their bedrooms listening to ‘influencers’ who have an often well hidden agenda behind their pronouncements. These views are then confirmed by peer group pressure to conform, and the cycle of affirmation continues. Many parents are not clued up enough to counter the views their kids are being fed even if they are aware of them. So then where else but in school are young people going to be challenged to both listen to alternate views and be encouraged to work out their own ideas . Youth clubs which used to provide safe spaces for discussion don’t exist, a limited number of children might get support from faith based organisations, but for the majority school is the only place where known and trusted adults have the time and knowledge to encourage discussion, and to do that they should be free to pose questions without being accused of transphobia.

Good for you, OP.

They sound like my teens - who are convinced JKR is evil, transphobic etc - but cannot tell me exactly what she has said that is transphobic. It is what they all say.