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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hospital told police patient not raped because attacker transgender

926 replies

Snoodsy · 18/03/2022 02:06

A hospital told the police that a patient could not have been raped because her alleged attacker was trans, the House of Lords has heard.

The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”.

Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne, who raised the issue during a debate on single-sex wards, continued: “They forgot that there was CCTV, nurses and observers.

“None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/

OP posts:
RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 18/03/2022 21:54

@DomesticatedZombie

6 or 7? How many cases will it take for people to see this is a pattern that will keep happening?
That is so depressing
TensionWheelsCooIHeels · 18/03/2022 21:54

@DomesticatedZombie

6 or 7? How many cases will it take for people to see this is a pattern that will keep happening?
This is why the baroness, despite her enduring & endless polite, respectful discourse, has been subjected to efforts to undermine her standing, her credibility & her reach.

The pro annex B speeches failed to acknowledge what the the baroness spoke about, stuck to the script of there's been no issues & they want discussion evidence based. I think they're in for a wee shock with the information the baroness is collating. They want evidence, and it's coming.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/03/2022 21:59

“Nnique

@ScrollingLeaves

Quite.

I was replying to the quote (in bold).

I’m well aware that most trans women keep their penises. Even if they didn’t, not having a functioning penis would not make them female.

A male who has surgery does not actually become female.”

@Nnique

Thank you for explaining. I am sorry, I did not mean to seem contradictory. Your post just got me thinking more about how most people in general don’t always realise the extent to which most trans women really are male bodied, pure and simple.

Nnique · 18/03/2022 22:03

Ah that makes sense! Sorry if I came across combative there.

whichiswitch · 18/03/2022 22:27

Awful just awful. What a world we live in where even the NHS protects rapists.

Smokeahontas · 18/03/2022 22:43

My heart is broken for these women. The actions of the NHS are utterly despicable. One is one too many, but another 6 or 7? Jesus fucking Christ. And the main concern of some lunatic on Twitter is a rapist being misgendered.

I know the Telegraph published an article, but I’ll guarantee that apart from The Times / Mail maybe, the media will not touch it with a barge pole.

passlefast · 18/03/2022 22:52

My heart is broken for these women. The actions of the NHS are utterly despicable. One is one too many, but another 6 or 7? Jesus fucking Christ. And the main concern of some lunatic on Twitter is a rapist being misgendered.

So depressing, such a horrible indictment on society.

theworldsgonefeckingmad · 18/03/2022 22:54

Fucking livid at this the rapist MAN should have his dick chopped off!!!

If the woman this happened to is reading this thread please know so many stand with you I am so sorry for what you have been through Thanks

maeveiscurious · 18/03/2022 23:08

Evil

IamSarah · 18/03/2022 23:15

I'm so horrified by this case. Here we are in 2022 where it is more important to validate a male rapist's identify than to support his female victim.

Waitwhat23 · 18/03/2022 23:46

I'm absolutely fucking livid about this - the more I think about it, the angrier I get. I was telling my husband about it earlier on and had to stop to compose myself because I just can't comprehend how society can just disregard women like this, throwing them under the bus for the sake of men's rights activists. The NHS are allowing women to be violated and then gaslight them while perverting the course of justice, the Prison Service are facilitating and condoning state sanctioned punative rape and women are having to self exclude from rape crisis services because the services prioritise validation over women's needs.

It's become a dystopian nightmare. And the rape denialists/apologists on this and other threads should be utterly, utterly ashamed of themselves. They won't be because they don't give a shit about women. But they should be.

Snoodsy · 19/03/2022 02:20

(This tweet was posted on Ovarit.) This is for anyone calling Baroness Nicholson a liar and that it never happened. I don’t know how to embed tweets, but this is an NHS official confirming that an “incident” happened at an NHS hospital. An incident, uh huh.

The tweet that they are referring to is from an NHS mental health director who tweeted, “No need for the transphobia, they were correct in saying there wasn’t a man in the facility.” This person’s Twitter account has since been deleted.

Hospital told police patient not raped because attacker transgender
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Tristine · 19/03/2022 03:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

KimikosNightmare · 19/03/2022 03:46

No - in UK law rape can only be committed by penetration by a penis so it isn’t possible under uk law for a women to commit rape

Sexual assault by penetration with an object carries an equal sentence in law so men and women can be convicted of it

That isn't strictly correct. The Sexual
Offences (Scotland) Act 2009 is different from the 2003 English Act.

Posters on here generally say trans men are female. Unconsented penetration by a trans man who has had a phalloplasty would be rape, not sexual assault. It might be rare, to the point of never, but in theory in those circumstances a woman could commit rape.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 19/03/2022 03:51

In your opinion it seems all trans women should be going into male only spaces and by the very same logic, trans men will be coming into your wards and toilets ?

Yep. That's fine, especially if the men are scared of female transitioners in their space.

Many female transitioners use women's facilities anyway, because
a) men's toilets are not set up for the half of the population that needs to sit down to urinate, and needs somewhere to dispose of sanitary pads and tampons one week in four.

b) the risk of sexual assault. Corrective rape from men is an issue for females caught posing as male. Did you never watch Boys Don't Cry? Had Hilary Swank in it.

It is an odd thing, but trans activists spend far more time demanding that women accept male transitioners in women's spaces than they do demanding that men's toilets be made more welcoming of female transitioners. Where are demands that signs be added saying "some men have periods", the petitions to install sanitary bins, or to put in extra cubicles?

P.S. as far as we know, no female transitioner has ever been placed in a men's prison in the UK, because the welfare assessments would not allow such an atrocity. The risks aren't symmetrical.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 19/03/2022 04:18

Honestly, it's like you've spent the past 25 years ignoring the existence of female transitioners and anything they might ask for, but a bat signal just went out, telling you all to threaten women with their presence.

Honestly, I am not bothered about 5 foot 1 Elliot Page continuing to use the ladies' toilet.

If Elliot wants to use the men's, that's between Elliot and men as a class. Not my place to guess what proportion of men would find it uncomfortable and undignified to have Elliot walk past them while they've got their cocks out to urinate into a urinal.

Snoodsy · 19/03/2022 04:25

Because men raping women is such an anomaly? The victim doesn’t owe you the details of her rape, sorry. Your post is why so many women are afraid to report rape. She was incredibly brave to tell Baroness Nicholson about it.

I can only imagine the harassment and hate this victim would receive from the anti-women groups if she came forward. Look what happened to the Wi Spa and the Loudoun County, VA victims when they came forward! Talk about horrific.

As a victim of a stranger rape I never reported, I am incredibly offended by your post. The privilege oozes.

@Tristine I haven’t seen anyone here complaining about the LGBTQ community, many from the community post here, but please report any posts you feel don’t meet the guidelines.

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Somanysocks · 19/03/2022 04:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Helleofabore · 19/03/2022 05:07

In your opinion it seems all trans women should be going into male only spaces and by the very same logic, trans men will be coming into your wards and toilets ?

And yet when this question is asked of many transitioned females, they recognise that their testosterone treatment has allowed them to develop male characteristics. Which will deceive some women.

They understand then, that their presence may cause concern to other women if the woman cannot immediately identify them as another female. And those transitioned females will try to find another solution before causing that distress.

They do this because they understand the concerns of females, being female themselves.

It is really only trans activists who seek to use this as a ‘gotcha’. A sick and twisted gotcha. It is a threat to traumatised women.

Are you proud of your threat?

Because traumatised women are in a no win situation- either accept transitioned males who still are perceived male in their safe spaces

or

accept transitioned females who have had testosterone and developed some male characteristics that may cause distress.

Even when a person understands that female is another female who has taken testosterone. The testosterone derived characteristics may cause distress. Same as the testosterone derived features of a male often still be identified without extreme facial surgery and laser hair removal.

Well done. It shows you as a person have absolutely no empathy for the women at the centre of this.

Even better, you come onto a forum known to be primarily for women, it is in the name, and plonk down your amazing ‘gotcha’ with pride. Knowing it will cause some of those women distress just thinking about it.

Those who would be traumatized by both.

Well done, indeed!

I am sure though, that there are less females who would be retraumatised by knowing that it is a masculine presenting female with them though, compared to a transitioned male. That is IF they were certain it was another female. And never have to encounter another male in that space. That knowing there is only possibly a female there. Including one who has taken testosterone and has, for example some facial hair (by itself not an issue), a deepened voice, some change to the face, and/or a receding hair line. But still a female, never a male.

So if that is indeed ‘your threat’, and every single female on the planet knew the only person who could enter the safe space was another female (just with testosterone derived characteristics), it would be a far better solution than them being put in the other position. That of identifying that a transitioned male has entered the safe space when they are vulnerable and may cause them harm or to feel unsafe or to retraumatise them.

Imagine wanting to take that expectation of safety away from a female victim of male violence and sexual abuse, or rape?

What type of person uses this as a threat to women to force them to accept males into single sex safe spaces? Onto hospital wards, prisons, refuges etc?

Don’t bother answering. We know.

OldCrone · 19/03/2022 05:33

[quote Snoodsy]Link to the article.

www.reduxx.org/post/nhs-mental-health-specialist-deletes-twitter-account-after-gaslighting-rape-victim[/quote]
That article says:
In 2010, England banned mix-sex hospital wards outside of the ICU, but a controversial 2019 guidance within the NHS titled Annexe B began to allow for men who self-identify as women to be placed on single-sex wards.

That's not totally accurate. The guidance in Annex B is actually from 2009. It's Annex E in this archived NHS document.

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20130104221201/http:/www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098893.pdf

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 19/03/2022 07:48

Oh look another poster seeking to deny what happened and accusing a peer of misleading Parliament
Do you think they tag team?

It’s really interesting to see the level of willingness to discount the suffering and distress of women to protect the feelings of biological males.

FunnyTalks · 19/03/2022 07:58

In your opinion it seems all trans women should be going into male only spaces and by the very same logic, trans men will be coming into your wards and toilets ?

Remember most feminists were default pro trans rights before this all got so fucked up and misogynist. What should have happened was that trans activists (who I know are often - usually? - not actually trans themselves) fought for acceptance for trans people as trans people with no deception involved. To make sure equal access to all areas of society, housing, employment, healthcare etc. No discrimination, as trans people. Comparitor is with those of the same sex.

So the transman on the ward (of course as a female they should be on a female ward! They share biology and are at risk on a male ward) would be accepted because you would know they were trans. It would be normalised.

The threat would of course then be from males who pretended to be trans men in order to access female spaces. But at least they'd just be understood as having nefarious intent and action could be taken.

Datun · 19/03/2022 08:06

Stonewall instructing peers to answer blah blah blah, randoms trying to find out who the victim is, pathetic attempts to discredit the baroness and comments being targeted across MSM.

They're really on the ropes.