Hospital told police patient not raped because attacker transgender

[Snoodsy]

A hospital told the police that a patient could not have been raped because her alleged attacker was trans, the House of Lords has heard.

The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”.

Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne, who raised the issue during a debate on single-sex wards, continued: “They forgot that there was CCTV, nurses and observers.

“None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/

“MaeveKerrigan

“I have just talked about this case to my DH who has actually accused me of having transphobic tendencies. I despair.”

I am sorry that must be very difficult for you.

Being accused of being a transphobic, a bigot or a Nazi soon loses its sting, believe me, when you bear in mind that you are speaking out for the many women and girls who can’t.

I expect this thread will be pulled by MN, as it speaks out at the outrage of natal women who suffer at the hands of men pretending to be women.
It’s pandering and denial.

Women need safe spaces away from men who can just say “I am a woman” and bingo, we have to allow them into women only spaces?

It is wrong.

Isn’t the problem that hospitals, say, are adhering to the “single sex wards” rule because the trans person is saying they are a woman. So if you are admitted to a ward and find a man in the next bed, you have no argument because according to their guidelines you are simply objecting to another woman’s presence.

It seems that every hospital should have the definition of male and female (ie genitals/chromosomes) in their charter, and rely on that rather than being dictated to - in the case under Lords debate - by a dangerous pervert.

I'm pretty sure that lying to the police to impede an investigation is a serious offence. Do we know if hospital staff were arrested and charged?

[quote Dendrite]@OvaHere
We seem to live in a world full of immature adults professing their distress at being asked to confront material reality whilst simultaneously enabling the potential for real, material harms to a huge number of people.[/quote]
Yes exactly. I'm sure they self identify as nice, kind, good people but are actually the epitome of the phrase 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

Sickening story
I’ve started discussing it with friends. Horrified.

But my first thought is, this has took a year, and obviously media has taken hold but how many other cases similar have been dropped or not looked into that we don’t know about.
Therefore, how many rapists to transition in order to try and get away with it as it’s so overlooked?
How many men to trans in order to fulfill their whatever word and get away. Food for thought.

@FunnyTalks
I got Baroness Nicholson’s speech (and Lord Etherton’s ) from Hansard
hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2022-03-16/debates/84C9B6AA-0214-4CEF-A41D-302373BDC190/HealthAndCareBill#contribution-0E3BB87F-8B92-477C-B9BF-6672F71C385D

@TeaKlaxon
You are claiming a peer sought to mislead Parliament?
That’s a hell of a claim to make. I hope you can back it up.

Has it occurred to you that due to confidentiality and the possibility of an ongoing police investigation BN couldn’t put all the details in the public domain. She may not have been allowed to identify the hospital or the police force to protect the identity of the victim and to avoid prejudicing any investigation.

@oakleaffy

I expect this thread will be pulled by MN, as it speaks out at the outrage of natal women who suffer at the hands of men pretending to be women. It’s pandering and denial.

Women need safe spaces away from men who can just say “I am a woman” and bingo, we have to allow them into women only spaces?

It is wrong.

I hope it isn’t pulled. It is so important that women know what is happening.

Jesus.
How many women have to be sacrificed before this shit is stopped?

@ChristinaXYZ

The way the main media outlets cover this - or don't - really makes me cross. Nothing at all on the BBC, not even their health pages. Not on ITV or Sky. It is the lead article on the GBNews website though.

What facts would they cover?

If I were a news editor and someone pitched a story about a hospital that claimed there were no males in the hospital (not just on the ward - according to the Baroness) and that police took that at face value, didn't ask to see CCTV - but somehow a year later something changed...

The first thing I'd be asking is 'which hospital and what have they said in response' and 'which police force and what have they said in response'.

I certainly would not be running a news story about a hospital somewhere, and a police force somewhere, that one person claims has done something. That's not journalism.

Which begs the question why these vital details were omitted from the Baroness' speech?

I am so angry about this I could explode.

They say this will never happen, that we’re making up nonsense but women are being raped.

It’s a DISGRACE

[quote ChazsBrilliantAttitude]@TeaKlaxon
You are claiming a peer sought to mislead Parliament?
That’s a hell of a claim to make. I hope you can back it up.

Has it occurred to you that due to confidentiality and the possibility of an ongoing police investigation BN couldn’t put all the details in the public domain. She may not have been allowed to identify the hospital or the police force to protect the identity of the victim and to avoid prejudicing any investigation.[/quote]
I am saying that her depiction of it doesn't pass the smell test.

Do you really believe a hospital told the police that there were 'no males in the hospital' and that the police just took that at face value? That claim strikes me as obviously nonsense - there is no hospital in the country with no males in any capacity, be it staff or patients, in them.

And on the issue of the investigation - identifying a hospital or police force does not prejudice an investigation nor does it identify a victim.

There are no legal constraints on her ability to name the hospital and police force. But she chose not to. Why do you think that is?

I have already told you why I think that is. Naming the hospital may prejudice an ongoing investigation and facilitate the identification of a rape victim who wishes to remain anonymous.

Dendrite

This has been brewing for years. My hospital's policy on trans has been to let anyone self ID onto wards for years, (it used to say regardless of appearance or dress but they seem to have dropped that bit). They expect staff to police the reactions of other patients who may object. It's an imbalanced mess of a policy.

In the last year they have moved from having sex (ie biological) on patient records to replacing it with gender (but only giving 2 out of the 100+ options funnily enough). But rather than using man woman boy girl they have kept male /female. Thus taking over the term for bio sex. Thus making this unclear when it's used by staff whether gender id or actual sez is being referres to.

Now any instance where sex matters, eg if you need to check pregnancy status, you need to hope someone privy to the real data on sex will share that with you as it's considered private info. This won't work though as referrers don't have the knowledge of what all staff do or need to know. So it's a bodge job. Cue the transman whose pregnancy was missed with bad consequences.

Staff aren't being given a choice, it's driven from the top & enforced by the local staff lgbtqi+ interest group & self-appointed lgbtq+ 'champions' who search out policies with verboten words like woman & female & try to have them changed. Staff are fearful of getting into trouble for daring to speak up against it, it's like a tidal wave of science-denying misogynistic nonsense but it is being pushed by women as well as men. I give the Trust both barrels each time they send the staff survey out, have seen some recent small positive changes, but this is like a juggernaut that will take a lot of resistance & fight to turn around.

Too many Trusts let Saville run free in their hospitals for many years, now they can't see they're doing something very similar, but on a massive scale. I feel like screaming at the cognitive dissonance of supposedly senior intelligent people who promote such harms. Many issues stem from accepting the change in language when we still need the terms relating to sex to be clearly distinct from gender ID. Transwoman or transman should be perfectly acceptable descriptors to be owned & be proud of, but now the extremists want to obliterate the meaning of woman & female this is leading to intended and unintended consequences, as nobody is retrospectively changing sex based laws or policies to keep up with the language erosion. Thus protections & rights as well as language for females is being dismantled in retrospect. Not acceptable. Not ever. Not as long as females exist, which will be a long time yet & far after this sociological bollocks is a dim distant memory.
@ Dendrite
I wonder if you have seen this about the importance of using the correct language related to sex in healthcare settings - specifically when it is about pregnancy, birth, and lactation but be extension it applies to other health related conditions. It is brilliantly written, sensitive and nuanced. It should be read by anyone in charge.
Frontiers | Effective Communication About Pregnancy, Birth, Lactation, Breastfeeding and Newborn Care: The Importance of Sexed Language | Global Women's Health

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full?fbclid=IwAR2LxA0PL7cJ0SbS_Jq9df5jfLbCCwfVz86vd7aYWkeAq23liD_TpfEpuqA

@Mummyoflittledragon

I’ve just seen this on a Glinner update. Poor woman. This is awful. How have we reached this stage?!

In no small part by message boards such as this setting woke agendas and championing trans rights over and above those of via people.

That's PRECISELY how we have reached this stage, unfortunately.

I do agree that we don't know any of the details. I believe that a victim of rape was treated appallingly, I don't have any doubt about that. But eg the hospital cannot have said verbatim 'there was no male in the hospital' - they could have said there was no male patient on the ward. So that's one somewhat broad brush moment.

From the Baroness' speech:

However, a rather wonderful ladyI cannot say who she iswas raped in hospital by a man about a year ago. There is only one definition of rape in Britain and that is male on female; you cannot rape if you do not have the structure of a male. She was raped and she naturally reported it to the police. The police spoke to the hospital, which informed them that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened. They forgot that there was CCTVV^, nurses and observers. None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened. It is on record—I know where the case happened, who the police are and where the hospital is. I know everything about it because she gave me the full case to make sure I knew that what she was saying was true.
During that year she has almost come to the edge of a nervous breakdown, because being disbelieved about being raped in hospital has been such an appalling shock. The hospital, with all its CCTV, has had to admit that the rape happened and that it was committed by a man. The police have therefore changed their tune and become enormously supportive and helpful, and the case is going ahead.

She was paraphrasing, she wasn't giving a verbatim quote.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

I have already told you why I think that is. Naming the hospital may prejudice an ongoing investigation and facilitate the identification of a rape victim who wishes to remain anonymous.

No it wouldn't.

Hospitals have thousands of patients passing through every year. If I were to say this happened in Homerton hospital and the Met police messed up the investigation, that would not identify the victim.

But it would allow the Met and Homerton hospital to clarify what actually happened. Which the Baroness seems keen doesn't happen, for some reason.

There are no legal constraints on her ability to name the hospital and police force.

The person who doesn't know what "begging the question" is turns out to believe themselves an expert on the law! How typical.

This is going to be like Wi Spa, isn't it? It never happened and will continue to have never happened, until the day it turns out it unequivocally did happen.