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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3

999 replies

Whatamesssss · 17/03/2022 16:43

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
FlibbertyGiblets · 18/03/2022 17:13

Thank you all for this thread. Flipping heck.

TensionWheelsCooIHeels · 18/03/2022 17:15

@GreenUp

Can anyone explain how the team (Peter Daly solicitor, Anya Palmer barrister, Ben Cooper QC) would work on this.

1|) Do they all do research and contribute to the bundle or is it just the solicitor or the barristers?

  1. Who decides tactical approach?

  2. Are Peter and Anya watching live so that they can give BC pointers during the break or is BC in charge of everything?

  3. Would the team consider how the judge/tribunal members might respond to points based on who is making them? Eg. Like another poster above I also think that BC can get away with saying stuff like "male bodies" because he is a man whereas AP would get less leeway to say this kind of thing because she is a woman - we see this socially all the time - that women are punished for expressing views that men can get away with.

I know court is supposed to be rational and logical but do lawyers give consideration to social prejudice when they are planning who will argue the points or would that have no bearing?

Based on my experience as a client instructing sols on civil cases, it generally works like this.

I have a case I either need to defend or issue against another party. My job is to gather as much evidence as I can in preparation for either defending or suing the opposition. I send my instructions, my file, to sols & they review & give an initial summary, requests for various items they identify as required, and will usually file a defence or deal with a defence submitted by opposing side.

You go through various procedures (witness exchange, timetable of process, any orders for disclosure etc), and most of the time if there's a hearing, the sols will instruct a barrister to speak on my/our behalf. The barrister when they get instructions, will usually respond with their recommendations, often citing case law, and then I/we respond with instructions- if we agree, if we want another tactic, if we disagree etc.

The earliest involvement of counsel is usually to 'test' the evidence of the person involved (keeping specifics vague so as to not 'out' myself) by taking them through the evidence, and once that's done, they advise what they think the prospects of success are. A good witness, supporting evidence, and a poor response/failure to disclose from opposite side can give a good % of the likelihood of success.

On the day, it often comes down to nerves/presentation/quality of cross examination & the mood of the judge too. It's very unpredictable & I've known some weak cases win & some strong cases fall apart.

In this case, Maya's QC has an excellent understanding of the issues, of the timeline of events, of the inconsistencies in the various statements, good support via anya & Peter & an opposition who are struggling because they appear to be arse covering retrospectively, and their decisions have been based on frankly piss poor evidence & hyperbolic reactions to Maya's views.

Again, IANAL, and only ever see the paper file & rarely get to sit in court to witness things. It's quite exiting to see this in real time & watch someone clearly on top of his brief with laser sharp forensic skills when cross examining, and being able to draw out the weaknesses, the inconsistencies, the 'untruths' & the shifty evasiveness of witnesses trying desperately to stick to the 'manifestation of belief' position retrospectively. And convincing no one.

OstrichFeathers · 18/03/2022 17:15

I've been watching in today after reading all week and it's fascinating. Thanks so much to all the live transcriber/tweeters for the epic work. Maya, you are incredible and the team you have assembled reflect that.

And very frivolously, I love Ben's work space, especially that artwork Grin

TensionWheelsCooIHeels · 18/03/2022 17:23

I'd also add, having 2 barristers involved, one doing the cross, the other no doubt taking notes & supporting Ben, is a good way of being able to keep tabs on inconsistencies. The cases I deal with, we only have 1 barrister so they need to be 'on it' without the back up Ben has today. My experience is that the solicitor doesn't usually do that, but with online cases, he's got a chance to watch proceedings if he has the time. It's unlikely though, as that's time that Maya would need to pay for too. Atm, she's paying for 2 barristers over however many days, to cross examine several witnesses. It's bloody expensive! I'm just not sure that she'd be paying for his solicitor to spend time watching proceedings at the same time as it'll just add to the costs involved. At the end of each day, they may confer & the barristers may ask for the solicitor or Maya to find something specific, or to give them pointers on what's been heard so far etc.

What I've usually had is an update from my solicitor via feedback from counsel with an outcome, or feedback & seeking instructions if needed. It's all very different with online cases through cos my cases are usually in a different part of the country & we'd be nowhere near the court.

longlines · 18/03/2022 17:30

@MayaWasSackedForGCBeliefs

Mark's email on the response in London (posted by Maya on twitter)
Well it's in black and white them isn't it? They object not to her tone, but to her position - i.e. her beliefs.

Those same beliefs that are protected against discriminaton by employers under the Equality Act.

Chrysanthemum5 · 18/03/2022 17:41

Side point but will Nancy Kelley of stonewall be questioned by Ben at Allison Baileys trial? Because I may need to take time off work to fully enjoy that.

Although as I'm only a woman (and a boring old real one at that) my work probably isn't very important

Signalbox · 18/03/2022 17:43

@Chrysanthemum5

Side point but will Nancy Kelley of stonewall be questioned by Ben at Allison Baileys trial? Because I may need to take time off work to fully enjoy that.

Although as I'm only a woman (and a boring old real one at that) my work probably isn't very important

Presumably it depends if the defence call her as a witness (if she had any involvement).
AlisonDonut · 18/03/2022 17:45

As it is the end of this week, for those that like a good legal drama [this week has been drama enough but if you want more] may I recommend the series Goliath.

What a shit show CDG are tho.

Sophoclesthefox · 18/03/2022 17:45

Another exciting day. I’m really enjoying the commentary here, which has some great insight from people that gives further context, and more to think about. Thank you everyone.

It’s extremely interesting that there has been no attempt to engage here from the transally or transactivist perspective…slim pickings?

TensionWheelsCooIHeels · 18/03/2022 17:46

😂

I think we're all going to book holidays to watch that happen - i bloody hope so! The prospect of NK being given no room for her nonsense, the way Ben has with the parade of CGD's 'finest' is just sooooo enticing 😁.

Just imagine - the CEO of stonewall being pushed to account for the position that homosexuality is akin to racism. 🤯

TensionWheelsCooIHeels · 18/03/2022 17:47

If not NK, will Ruth hunt make an appearance instead then? Or will the 'trans' leadership wing be front & centre in this, I wonder?

BluerThanRobinsEggs · 18/03/2022 17:49

@rogdmum

I wonder if they had the opportunity to do it again, would they tackle it differently…. 🤔🤔🤔🤔
"Can it be that it was all so simple then? Or has time re-written every line? If we had the chance to do it all again Tell me, would we? Could we? Mem'ries, may be beautiful and yet What's too painful to remember We simply choose to forget" Grin
Xenia · 18/03/2022 18:03

Tension's answer to Green is good.
My attempt is below:

GreenUp Fri 18-Mar-22 16:55:28

Can anyone explain how the team (Peter Daly solicitor, Anya Palmer barrister, Ben Cooper QC) would work on this.

1|) Do they all do research and contribute to the bundle or is it just the solicitor or the barristers?
The firm of solicitors put the bundle together - in one 50 days in court case I did it was a huge exercise. The barrister (QC and the junior) will do most the research for a trial and have to know the bundles and documents like the back of their hand and probably in ordinary civil cases anyway draft the court claim, particulars, defence etc, solicitor usually draws up written witness statements sometimes the barrister helps. The QC and the junior barrister will prepare before the case - in big cases that might take them a week or more and they are paid a brief fee for all that trial preparation work - there comes a point lose to the hearing where that payment is still due even if the case settles because they have blocked out the time and started preparing.

  1. Who decides tactical approach?
    Often there are lots of calls or meetings between solicitor and barrister and it will differ between cases. Also in most types of cases the case is set out in writing fairly early on so it is not easy to change it later or bring new fundamentals in. IN terms of tactics i court the QC will be doing all that.

  2. Are Peter and Anya watching live so that they can give BC pointers during the break or is BC in charge of everything?
    In the High Court (not sure about employment tribunals) usually the junior barrister sits the row behind the QC and the solicitor the row behind that and the client behind ( a kind of order of positional precedence) and you can pass written notes between client to solicitor on to barrister etc as you go and vice versa.

  3. Would the team consider how the judge/tribunal members might respond to points based on who is making them? Eg. Like another poster above I also think that BC can get away with saying stuff like "male bodies" because he is a man whereas AP would get less leeway to say this kind of thing because she is a woman - we see this socially all the time - that women are punished for expressing views that men can get away with.
    I do not think so. You are an officer of the court as a barrister or solicitor and also act of the client. The fact you might vote in a certain way or be male or black or whatever should be totally irrelevant to how you argue something and who argues it although I am sure some clients from time to time might say - I want a woman or I want a man or I am black get me a black QC but it is not very common.

HesDeadBenYouCanStopNow · 18/03/2022 18:15

Thank you for the updates, i hope it is going as well as it seems to, they came across awfully

VaginaRegina · 18/03/2022 18:21

Excellent name (-change??) there!

HesDeadBenYouCanStopNow · 18/03/2022 18:27

Thank you, I thought it was warranted, I think BC is doing a fab job Smile

WallaceinAnderland · 18/03/2022 18:27

MA that's not accurate. I was in australia and got these reports and decided then that I needed to take a decision because going on for too long, didn't think the QI and Sabo report enabled us to take a decision, looked at the balance of risks and benefits in keeping the claimant on as a VF. came to the view right or wrong that I felt that the risks of the claimant continuing to be involved in this debate because of her strong and passionate view, over the next year if she was with us we were likely to have more instances where we would end up spending time dealing with the internal fall out and having repeated conversations with her about social media. Growing fractious management team - needed to put a stop to it.

Just catching up but isn't MA's stance supposed to be that Maya wasn't let go because of GC beliefs? Here he seems very clear that was the reason.

RoyalCorgi · 18/03/2022 18:32

Just catching up but isn't MA's stance supposed to be that Maya wasn't let go because of GC beliefs? Here he seems very clear that was the reason.

Yes. Even worse, really, he seems to imply that he let her go, not because her beliefs were offensive, because it was all too much aggro to have someone hold beliefs that were different from other people in the organisation.

SierraSapphire · 18/03/2022 18:40

They also need to prove that she was employed by CGD and therefore her role was covered by emploment rights.

The Equality Act protects people who have an agreement to undertake work, it doesn't need to be a PAYE employment contract. Certain elements of employment law only relate to people who are employed rather than contractors, so Maya can't use these (e.g. unfair or wrongful dismissal - although there could be a separate argument that she is in law actually employed like the Uber drivers), but discrimination because of protected characteristics is covered within the EA for the self-employed.

Twitterwhooooo · 18/03/2022 18:49

Thank you so much Tabby and others.

I've been out at work all day and it was wonderful to get home, open a beer and read all your this thread.

Awkwardy · 18/03/2022 19:14

Woriads!

Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3
OvaHere · 18/03/2022 19:22

Love it @Awkwardy Grin

Terfydactyl · 18/03/2022 19:27

I'm so sad I'm back at work next week. Cant keep reading in real time.
This has been a blast. Am hoping next week brings the same drama and quips.
I still laugh at hes dead Ben.

Redshoeblueshoe · 18/03/2022 19:59

Mole is always brilliant.

beastlyslumber · 18/03/2022 20:07

@Awkwardy

Woriads!
That's brilliant!