Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3

[Whatamesssss]

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

Well so long as they can afford it.

They’re back and BC suggesting that MA has changed his version of events.

MA - I don't agree

(I'll stop posting anything as Posie is doing it!)

He wouldn't have the option not to take the case. Cab rank rule - barristers are hired by whoever hails them first! Absolute cornerstone of the bar

I think in practice the cab rank principle is quite flexible.

BC: [bundle] these points are what you stuck to in call with claimant?

MA: some of them, not all. I don't recall talking about policy positions that we would not tolerate. I agree with last sentence. The rest is not something I felt.

BC: you didnt' give any additional reasons not in these talking points?

MA: No.

BC: the claimant was right that a decision which requires a briefing from someone else, can't really be your decision?

MA: wrong interpretation. My EA asked Mr P for talking points as I discussed with him the broad lines of proceedings.

I'm pretty certain of that too. I've had to instruct a solicitor and he suggested the barrister because he was good in his field and he thought we would get on well together. Which we did. And we won.

Are Prosecution Barristers in the Criminal area solely Prosecution Barristers or do they/can they do either Prosecution or Defence?

Clients can choose a barrister, but not vice versa - if the barrister has availability for the requested case, they can't decide not to take it.

Sinster music plays as Ellen MacKenzie floats through the proceedings like a ghost

@nauticant

Sinster music plays as Ellen MacKenzie floats through the proceedings like a ghost

Definitely EM's presence is there.

@nauticant

Sinster music plays as Ellen MacKenzie floats through the proceedings like a ghost

They all seem terrified of EM.

Not sure. I think barristers tend to take on cases that they sympathise with if they can. I think Ben is on Maya's side, and not just for the money.

Peter Daly who was (is?) on Maya's team is clearly on-board, and wrote this great piece about it:

The Forstater Judgment: What Next?

Most barristers of advanced qualification get "known" - from cases they have won - for being very effective for one side or the other. DH specialises in a niche area, for a small number of clients in constant litigation, and there are a handful of very well known barristers he uses all the time. He would not dream of trying to instruct a barrister known to act for the other side to this clients, because that would effectively be giving his and the client's "trade" secrets away to a barrister that, next time, might be on the opposing team.

In my experience, employment barristers at QC level will generally be for the employer or for the employee, and solicitors looking to instruct will know this and try to engage them or avoid them accordingly. Agreeing with the beliefs of one or the other doesn't come into it, per se, although they are humans, they will see what arguments are being made for either side and draw their own moral conclusions.

@VestofAbsurdity

They all seem terrified of EM.

It's very Macavity.

Macavity’s a Mystery Cat: he’s called the Hidden Paw—
For he’s the master criminal who can defy the Law.
He’s the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad’s despair:
For when they reach the scene of crime—Macavity’s not there!
…
Macavity, Macavity, there’s no one like Macavity,
There never was a Cat of such deceitfulness and suavity.
He always has an alibi, and one or two to spare:
At whatever time the deed took place—MACAVITY WASN’T THERE!
And they say that all the Cats whose wicked deeds are widely known
(I might mention Mungojerrie, I might mention Griddlebone)
Are nothing more than agents for the Cat who all the time
Just controls their operations: the Napoleon of Crime!

poets.org/poem/macavity-mystery-cat

MA If I'd known this conversation was being recorded I would have been more careful with my language.

BC That answer is very revealing in itself.

Indeed it is.

@GrinitchSpinach

Doesn't the solicitor instruct the barrister? I presume Maya's GC solicitors sought a barrister who was either sympathetic or at the very least not hostile to GC views.

I've dealt with civil stuff (IANAL) & my experience is sols have a list of a few chambers depending on court location & will seek a particular QC but more often will take whoever is available - they need representation so if Ben Cooper has no availability (cos he's been booked out for the next 10 years on terven cases) they'll either take a recommendation or they'll just ask for someone available. I think when sols develop good working relationships with QCs/barristers, and get to see the ones that really are great at getting across their brief, they'll often try and secure specific ones, but it's often hit & miss if their preferred barrister is available.

I've done training sessions with a few barristers, and run through mock trials, and they're as sharp as you'd imagine. The way they forensically tackle a point from several different angles, and then double back when they pick up on an inconsistent point or detail, is fascinating to witness.

There's also the problem when the barrister has very little time to get to grips with the details & it comes across in their presentation. The QC that FPFW had in the Scottish census case was an example of that. He was a bit confused & muddled on some details (it's a complex argument even for those who know it well) & there was likely very little time to prepare.

@VestofAbsurdity

Are Prosecution Barristers in the Criminal area solely Prosecution Barristers or do they/can they do either Prosecution or Defence?

Prosecution barristers work for the CPS in the main, I think.

MA says if he’d realised a call was being recorded, he’d have spoken more carefully

BC says he suggests that in itself is a revealing answer

(In the context of saying 'we' have decided not to renew Maya's VF - MA is trying hard to claim he took the decision, it wasn’t a joint one.

I can't being to imagin how BC preps for this type of questioning, gets all the page references and question in order etc. and doesn't end up in a hopeless muddle

@Pluvia

MA If I'd known this conversation was being recorded I would have been more careful with my language.

BC That answer is very revealing in itself.

Indeed it is.

MA got into a wee tizz about the use of his own pronouns

Peter Daly who was (is?) on Maya's team is clearly on-board, and wrote this great piece about it

I believe Peter Daly is also involved in Allison Bailey's case, and also Raquel Rosario Sanchez's.

BC: Thats revealing. You would have taken care to spin and finesse things rather than speak candidly.
MA: No to avoid ums and ahs and get my pronouns correct.

Always those pesky, bloody pronouns eh MA.

Clearly as slippery as a fish, but I do feel for MA on one thing.

He delegated to some highly senior staff to deal with an issue around social media policy in the satellite office. They created an unholy mess, including commissioning a report from a consultancy with no understanding of UK employment law, blocking every attempt at sensible resolution and whipping up the Washington office into a vitriolic frenzy (maybe I exaggerate ...).

I guess at that point, the principled thing to do would be to fire EM, but given the fuss that would have created in America, it could have been the end of CGD. Or at least the end of MA, who would be forced to resign in favour of a steady hand more keenly attuned to the cultural zeitgeist ... Such as EM's perhaps?