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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling article

496 replies

DrDreReturns · 16/03/2022 08:56

Interesting read. I know it's from a Conservative site but it seems only the right are gender critical at the moment.

www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2022/03/profile-j-k-rowling-striving-to-stop-starmer-nailing-his-colours-to-the-fence-on-trans.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 11:13

Gonna pin this straight in the middle of the GC, pro-life venn diagram.

Please do. So far nothing you have posted has been compelling, so your cheerleading for males to be able to terminate a pregnancy (after a womb transplant) to fulfil their published fantasy is of no consequence to me.

I support female's decisions for abortion. But you can label me anyway you choose. You seem to not have anywhere near the understanding that your chosen username is supposed to suggest. So, crack on.

It seems to be you forcing labels onto everyone. That is your thing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 11:14

No males have a positive legal right to use spaces intended for the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls. Generally society operates along liberal lines, and respect for women's boundaries usually stopped them doing so. But there are always people who think these expectations don't apply to them. It doesn't mean that they have "moral rights" to violate women's boundaries.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 11:16

Any MTF trans person has as much right as any other male to use a women's space.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 11:19

And I predict that as things become more uncomfortable and intimidating for women with males taking full advantage, they will start taking their male friends and relatives into the loos/changing rooms with them. And spaces where there is only a social contract in place to keep men will become mixed sex. Because it has been broken.

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 11:22

Trans people have a moral and legal right to use single sex spaces. And have been since before you were born. It's an almost certainty that you've unknowingly shared a bathroom with someone who is trans.

No. They have claimed a moral right to use single sex spaces. And let's just see what the EHRC says about the current interpretations of the EA.

And have been since before you were born. It's an almost certainty that you've unknowingly shared a bathroom with someone who is trans.

Another tired old trope. Sure, the very few transitioned males were told by their male doctors that they should use female toilets.

I doubt they were welcomed into many single sex refuges and shelters, but would have of course, been welcomed in a minority. Because we have been told by people who started women's shelters and refuges that absolutely no males, transitioned or not, were welcomed into those spaces.

And so on.

I daresay that I 'have' unknowingly shared a bathroom because often I don't even look because I am in a hurry. However, when I need to have privacy because I have a pram stuck in the door, I am accutely aware of who else is walking by.

To keep telling women that we cannot tell who is male and who is female is another wonderful old trope. Even a male with full feminisation surgery, including on their voice, has to walk sometime. And those hips don't lie. Nor do their hands. And it is really interesting that people like to perpetuate that 'passing' myth.

As I said, what does it matter.

If a male knows that they will cause distress entering a female single sex space and yet continues to do so, that says all we need to know about them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 11:26

And it is really interesting that people like to perpetuate that 'passing' myth.

Isn't it. Why should it matter?

NecessaryScene · 22/03/2022 11:28

And I predict that as things become more uncomfortable and intimidating for women with males taking full advantage, they will start taking their male friends and relatives into the loos/changing rooms with them. And spaces where there is only a social contract in place to keep men will become mixed sex. Because it has been broken.

Makes sense.

Part of the reason for single-sex spaces is to allow women to go around without feeling they need to rely on a male bodyguard.

Posie Parker was expressing thanks the other day for the guy keeping an eye on Dawn Ennis during their confrontation.

twitter.com/StandingforXX/status/1505931803676356615
twitter.com/depressocats/status/1505913166877933572

Huge respect to Posie here. Everyone involved in that confrontation - Ennis, Parker, and the guy watching, can see the obvious fact Ennis is male, and no-one fully trusts Ennis's restraint to not lash out physically, and if that happened, Posie would come off much worse.

DownWhichOfLate · 22/03/2022 11:28

Even small children can easily identify male / female.

NecessaryScene · 22/03/2022 11:28

Oops, slightly wrong second link - this was the Ennis/Posie vid: twitter.com/madeleinekearns/status/1505892843247841288

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 11:30

well, trans women fit into this definition then I guess. If it weren't for their testosterone levels then they would have developed with bodies capable of producing ova. Trans women's imaginary eggs are as real as the imaginary eggs of cisgender women.

I think that this post is really getting to the nuts and bolts of the fact that you are fully entrenched in ideological thinking and realise that you simply cannot actually bend science to proven any evidence to underpin your agenda.

Also you said "You don't understand that all females have a body that contains the coding and usually the body parts to produce eggs?", sorry if I misinterpreted this to be about genes/chromosomes. But what I said is true, every human has the "coding" to generate ova, although it's not expressed in about half of them.

No. Sex can be observed from conception. A male embryo will not go on to produce a body formed around producing eggs. They go on to have testes of some type. So will never have been formed around producing eggs.

If what you said is true than those males who cannot process testosterone would have ovaries, and yet they have testes of some form.

You are pulling your information from ideologues trying to bend pseudoscience to progress your agenda. It doesn't seem to be based in science, let alone ethical science.

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 11:34

Trans women's imaginary eggs are as real as the imaginary eggs of cisgender women.

Do you actually understand how fucking offensive this is?

Do you actually understand that you have just equated women with fertility issues, or those who have suppressed their ovary production, as being the same as a male?

And you honestly are here lecturing us about YOUR feminism?

How fucking dare you!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 11:35

I have to say I take this person's claim to be a feminist about as seriously as I take any male's claim to be a woman.

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 11:37

proven = provide in my post. apologies

VestofAbsurdity · 22/03/2022 11:42

Trans women's imaginary eggs are as real as the imaginary eggs of cisgender women.

That is off the fucking scale offensive, but then I am hardly surprised because it's a built in feature for posters such as ElaineFuchs (who clearly gives no fucks about women) to be so repulsively offensive.

ElaineFuchs · 22/03/2022 11:43

@Helleofabore

well, trans women fit into this definition then I guess. If it weren't for their testosterone levels then they would have developed with bodies capable of producing ova. Trans women's imaginary eggs are as real as the imaginary eggs of cisgender women.

I think that this post is really getting to the nuts and bolts of the fact that you are fully entrenched in ideological thinking and realise that you simply cannot actually bend science to proven any evidence to underpin your agenda.

Also you said "You don't understand that all females have a body that contains the coding and usually the body parts to produce eggs?", sorry if I misinterpreted this to be about genes/chromosomes. But what I said is true, every human has the "coding" to generate ova, although it's not expressed in about half of them.

No. Sex can be observed from conception. A male embryo will not go on to produce a body formed around producing eggs. They go on to have testes of some type. So will never have been formed around producing eggs.

If what you said is true than those males who cannot process testosterone would have ovaries, and yet they have testes of some form.

You are pulling your information from ideologues trying to bend pseudoscience to progress your agenda. It doesn't seem to be based in science, let alone ethical science.

You're correct, happy to admit when I'm wrong! Swyer syndrome doesn't usually produce functional ovaries. There seem to be a few cases of functional ovaries in XY people, but like someone said above. I don't think it's nice to use intersex people as a prop for arguing.

Either way. I don't think it's fair to box people in to societal roles by their chromosomes, their genitalia or their reproductive organs.

I'm gonna leave it at that and sign off for tonight. Thanks for the chat @Helleofabore, please think about your biases against trans people.

NecessaryScene · 22/03/2022 11:45

well, trans women fit into this definition then I guess. If it weren't for their testosterone levels then they would have developed with bodies capable of producing ova.

The elision this time is between "sex" and "testosterone level".

One you've removed that elision and removed the obfuscation what you're left with is "if it weren't for their sex, then they would have been the opposite sex"...

Yes, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. This is not a new insight. Wink

(I can take this with a bit more equanimity than others here perhaps, not actually being of the sex under attack myself. See attached image.)

JK Rowling article
Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 11:48

I am wondering if posters who post such things as comparing females with DSDs/fertility issues/fertility choices to transitioned males and that they fully support a male having a womb transplant to then abort a pregnancy because that is their fantasy and that females were discriminated against because of their long hair and make up, actually realise just how poorly their arguments stand up to scrutiny.

And just how offensive it is.

I mean really. I had short hair and dressed in stereotypical male clothes - yet I still was discriminated against by employers. It is really something to see someone so totally unable to put it all together outside what they seem to have been told is the 'right' thing to believe.

sanluca · 22/03/2022 11:52

Either way. I don't think it's fair to box people in to societal roles by their chromosomes, their genitalia or their reproductive organs.

Then stop calling women cis and box us into your defined box for a start.

And secondly, if you truly believed this you would be advocating for the removal of all sex segregation and make the world mixed sex in everything. But you don't seem to be. You seem to want the boxes that women fought for to stay but instead of by reproductive system, let people in because they want to even if it means others are excluded. Weird way of thinking and very 'as long as I am all right'.

Lastly, if you don't want people boxed in by their genitalia or reproductive organs, women and men can no longer be referred to by their body parts or their sex. So that's all our healthcare screwed. Including those of trans people because not boxes, no transitioning.

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 11:58

I don't think it's fair to box people in to societal roles by their chromosomes, their genitalia or their reproductive organs.

FFS I am laughing so much at this.

Do you even know what you regard as the 'GC' feminists even think?

What part of 'females have a body formed around one reproductive purpose' but that no female should be expected to fulfil any particular role in society do YOU not get?

I have not seen one poster on this thread declare that because a person is female, it's fair to box people in to societal roles.

I'm gonna leave it at that and sign off for tonight. Thanks for the chat @Helleofabore, please think about your biases against trans people.

Honestly, you seem to only be able to follow the very superficial and illogical thoughts and mantras being delivered by some, and only some, trans rights activists. You claim people here have 'biases against trans people' yet I don't think you have any understanding of premises we are posting.

Sex matters sometimes. Most of the time sex does not matter. But where sex matters, it is sex that should be prioritised above gender.

Posts like Fuchs all through this thread are based on hugely prejudiced thinking. Starting from 'right wing / left wing' all the way through to that most fucking offensive 'If it weren't for their testosterone levels then they would have developed with bodies capable of producing ova. Trans women's imaginary eggs are as real as the imaginary eggs of cisgender women.'

And of course, there is never any acknowledgment that 'bad' trans people exist. Oh... I have never seen any trans person say such a thing. There is such a lack of perspective in these posts it is hard to believe that this person is on the up and up.

ElaineFuchs · 22/03/2022 12:00

@Helleofabore "And of course, there is never any acknowledgment that 'bad' trans people exist. Oh... I have never seen any trans person say such a thing. There is such a lack of perspective in these posts it is hard to believe that this person is on the up and up."

Bad trans people exist

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 22/03/2022 12:01

@Helleofabore

Trans women's imaginary eggs are as real as the imaginary eggs of cisgender women.

Do you actually understand how fucking offensive this is?

Do you actually understand that you have just equated women with fertility issues, or those who have suppressed their ovary production, as being the same as a male?

And you honestly are here lecturing us about YOUR feminism?

How fucking dare you!

As an infertile woman it’s beyond fucking appalling but I’ve become used to TRA weaponising the pain of infertility as a gotcha. It’s who they are
VestofAbsurdity · 22/03/2022 12:03

And secondly, if you truly believed this you would be advocating for the removal of all sex segregation and make the world mixed sex in everything. But you don't seem to be.

Of course they are not the simple reason being that they don't want all spaces mixed sex because then the validation of man who feels like a woman is a woman falls and that is the critical element of all this ideology.

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 12:05

Bad trans people exist

So, go and 'educate' them then.

VestofAbsurdity · 22/03/2022 12:07

You claim people here have 'biases against trans people'

Which is incredibly rich coming from a poster who has such biases and prejudice against women. The quote about the plank in their own eye comes to mind.

334bu · 22/03/2022 12:18

Trans people have a moral and legal right to use single sex spaces. And have been since before you were born. It's an almost certainty that you've unknowingly shared a bathroom with someone who is trans.

I presume you mean opposite sex safe spaces in which case they most certainly have neither the moral nor in some cases the legal right to share these spaces.