JK Rowling article

[DrDreReturns]

Interesting read. I know it's from a Conservative site but it seems only the right are gender critical at the moment.

www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2022/03/profile-j-k-rowling-striving-to-stop-starmer-nailing-his-colours-to-the-fence-on-trans.html

Gender identity correlates strongly with sex characteristics, but not 100%.

We should respect people whose gender identity doesn't line up with their sex characteristics, because ultimately the shape of someone's genitals or chromosomes is nobody's business but theirs.

It becomes our business when males seek to access female single sex spaces. When males seek access into female sport. When males take positions on shortlists, take opportunities that were set up to celebrate female's successes. Those successes previously denied to them due to negative sexist discrimination.

Negative sexist discrimination based on having a female body.

That is when it becomes our business.

I don't have a "gender identity", I just know what sex I am. "Cisgender" is a meaningless term which assumes my adherence to a belief system I don't share and which I think is actively harmful to women. It's goady and inflammatory.

@JustSpeculation

Broadly, I view feminism as a movement against patriarchal power structures. Women aren't the only group harmed by this, people of all genders suffer from the patriarchy. For example men can be bound to gender roles too, and suffer from toxic expectations of masculinity. I would say in one way or another, everyone is a victim of the patriarchy (or course not all in the same way, or to the same degree).

So you see feminism as being against something rather than for something?

I think your position is not true. As a man I do feel constrained by patriarchal assumptions, because they narrow the field of what it means to be a man. But many men don't, and are really happy in the role. I'm just a bloody-minded contrarian. The only way you could defend such as position as yours, @ElaineFuchs, is if you have some kind of concept such as "false consciousness", which I reject for various reasons too complex to go into here.

Doesn't it make more sense for feminsim to be about, you know, women?

Sorry, I can't understand what you're trying to say.

What I can say is that you are welcome in my feminism.

I don't have a "gender identity", I just know what sex I am. "Cisgender" is a meaningless term which assumes my adherence to a belief system I don't share and which I think is actively harmful to women. It's goady and inflammatory.

I tend to agree Eresh.

No adult I am friends with has a 'gender identity'. If a 'gender identity' was to be forced on them, I would expect each and every one of them to be non-binary.

Your feminism seems rather confused to be honest Elaine. It seems to lack coherence.

Well, people with XY chromosomes also contain this "coding", in fact cis women usually only have one X chromosome active in each cell.

And here we are bringing people with differences of sex development into your argument as the only way to illustrate it.

Do you understand that those with differences and variations in sex development have been asking to not have their bodies politicised?
And yet, here you are doing exactly that. Using someone's medical condition to 'prove' your political agenda.

Interesting as well as asking to not be used as political footballs, those with these medical needs have also stated quite categorically that if you DO choose to ignore their requests, that you at least do some actual research. That nearly all their conditions still mean they can reliably be sorted into male or female conditions. Thereby making these sorts of claims even more ludicrous and offensive.

If someone reprehensible (for example someone with terrible views on abortion) also happened to believe in trans liberation. I would still refuse to engage with their content and highlight them for their conservative views.

Ahh, what a wonderful person you are. 😇 However I regret to inform you that the trans community in general doesn’t abide by your rules. Would you like a list of reprehensible people who are platformed by the “trans community?” I’d say reprehensible views are on the whole less of a problem than reprehensible behaviour, but it won’t be hard to make a list containing plenty of examples of both.

@Helleofabore

Well, people with XY chromosomes also contain this "coding", in fact cis women usually only have one X chromosome active in each cell.

And here we are bringing people with differences of sex development into your argument as the only way to illustrate it.

Do you understand that those with differences and variations in sex development have been asking to not have their bodies politicised?
And yet, here you are doing exactly that. Using someone's medical condition to 'prove' your political agenda.

Interesting as well as asking to not be used as political footballs, those with these medical needs have also stated quite categorically that if you DO choose to ignore their requests, that you at least do some actual research. That nearly all their conditions still mean they can reliably be sorted into male or female conditions. Thereby making these sorts of claims even more ludicrous and offensive.

What medical condition? I was speaking in reference to allosex people.

ultimately the shape of someone's genitals or chromosomes is nobody's business but theirs.

TWs right to swing their fist ends BEFORE my nose. Currently women's noses are being battered (quite literally in some cases).

It absolutely is our business. Once TW's get back in their lane (or create their new one if they don't want to be in the men's) - it will no longer be my business.

Sure Elaine.

Well, people with XY chromosomes also contain this "coding", in fact cis women usually only have one X chromosome active in each cell.

Maybe you could clarify what you mean by this statement then?

However I regret to inform you that the trans community in general doesn’t abide by your rules

yes, the number of transitioned males who I have seen post about how they cannot wait for womb transplants so they can then experience abortion is too many to count.

Including some rather prominent transitioned males if I remember correctly. Certainly one very well known male. But we even had a poster on here post such a thing.

@Helleofabore

Sure Elaine.

Well, people with XY chromosomes also contain this "coding", in fact cis women usually only have one X chromosome active in each cell.

Maybe you could clarify what you mean by this statement then?

No problem.

It was two points:

People with XY chromosomes contain the full genetic material for ovaries, ovulation, etc...

The cells of cis women typically only have one active X chromosome.

@Helleofabore

However I regret to inform you that the trans community in general doesn’t abide by your rules

yes, the number of transitioned males who I have seen post about how they cannot wait for womb transplants so they can then experience abortion is too many to count.

Including some rather prominent transitioned males if I remember correctly. Certainly one very well known male. But we even had a poster on here post such a thing.

Wow, I've honestly never heard of such a desire.

All this talk about chromosomes is besides the point though. I don't know what mine are, I bet you don't know what yours are. They're irrelevant to ones gender (that's not to say that over all humans there isn't a strong correlation between XX -> female gender, XY -> male gender)

Just going a little further on them, even if they were the sole decider, how on earth would this map to day to day life, would someone be checking chromosomes at the door to the ladies bathroom?

Wow, I've honestly never heard of such a desire.

Then you probably need to get out more. I have seen it too many times on social media.

New card needed @DuckDuckNo

However I regret to inform you that the trans community in general doesn’t abide by your rules

Sure, trans people all think the same. None of them oppose self ID. None of them think sterilising kids is a bad idea. They all think you can dictate the words others use about you.

@Helleofabore

Wow, I've honestly never heard of such a desire.

Then you probably need to get out more. I have seen it too many times on social media.

Well, in either case I am pro choice enough that if this is what they want to do with their body then more power to them I suppose.

I guess there is the issue of them taking away abortion resources from other people who require them for non-elective purposes.

Hardly matters though considering that this is most likely just transphobes trying to paint trans women as sick fetishists or something. There's no way I could believe that this is a widespread desire.

People with XY chromosomes contain the full genetic material for ovaries, ovulation, etc...

The cells of cis women typically only have one active X chromosome.

All this talk about chromosomes is besides the point though. I don't know what mine are, I bet you don't know what yours are. They're irrelevant to ones gender (that's not to say that over all humans there isn't a strong correlation between XX -> female gender, XY -> male gender)

Hence, Elaine, why I did not mention chromosomes at all.

I said 'a body formed around the production of large gametes, whether that body successfully produces those large gametes or not'.

I am not the one relying on pseudoscientific theories and the politicisation of other people's medical conditions. That seems to be you.

Hardly matters though considering that this is most likely just transphobes trying to paint trans women as sick fetishists or something. There's no way I could believe that this is a widespread desire.

So, you are ok for a human to be solely created for the purpose of a person terminating that life for their own pleasure?

And if you really are anything resembling 'Elaine V Fuchs' you must also realise that even for scientificly approved studies by ethic boards, a human embryo has to be destroyed before a certain number of days.

@Helleofabore

Hardly matters though considering that this is most likely just transphobes trying to paint trans women as sick fetishists or something. There's no way I could believe that this is a widespread desire.

So, you are ok for a human to be solely created for the purpose of a person terminating that life for their own pleasure?

And if you really are anything resembling 'Elaine V Fuchs' you must also realise that even for scientificly approved studies by ethic boards, a human embryo has to be destroyed before a certain number of days.

Gonna pin this straight in the middle of the GC, pro-life venn diagram.

Just going a little further on them, even if they were the sole decider, how on earth would this map to day to day life, would someone be checking chromosomes at the door to the ladies bathroom?

How on earth did we survive so long without bathroom guards?

Do posters who plop this down honestly not think this through.

Are they really telling us that transitioned males simply will not respect female's needs for single sex spaces and will ignore any laws so they can access those single sex spaces? yet, that those transitioned males are just like all other females?

@Helleofabore

People with XY chromosomes contain the full genetic material for ovaries, ovulation, etc...

The cells of cis women typically only have one active X chromosome.

All this talk about chromosomes is besides the point though. I don't know what mine are, I bet you don't know what yours are. They're irrelevant to ones gender (that's not to say that over all humans there isn't a strong correlation between XX -> female gender, XY -> male gender)

Hence, Elaine, why I did not mention chromosomes at all.

I said 'a body formed around the production of large gametes, whether that body successfully produces those large gametes or not'.

I am not the one relying on pseudoscientific theories and the politicisation of other people's medical conditions. That seems to be you.

well, trans women fit into this definition then I guess. If it weren't for their testosterone levels then they would have developed with bodies capable of producing ova. Trans women's imaginary eggs are as real as the imaginary eggs of cisgender women.

Also you said "You don't understand that all females have a body that contains the coding and usually the body parts to produce eggs?", sorry if I misinterpreted this to be about genes/chromosomes. But what I said is true, every human has the "coding" to generate ova, although it's not expressed in about half of them.

Are they really telling us that transitioned males simply will not respect female's needs for single sex spaces and will ignore any laws so they can access those single sex spaces?

It's really not the winning argument they think it is, is it.

@Helleofabore

Just going a little further on them, even if they were the sole decider, how on earth would this map to day to day life, would someone be checking chromosomes at the door to the ladies bathroom?

How on earth did we survive so long without bathroom guards?

Do posters who plop this down honestly not think this through.

Are they really telling us that transitioned males simply will not respect female's needs for single sex spaces and will ignore any laws so they can access those single sex spaces? yet, that those transitioned males are just like all other females?

Trans people have a moral and legal right to use single sex spaces. And have been since before you were born. It's an almost certainty that you've unknowingly shared a bathroom with someone who is trans.