Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 2

[Sophoclesthefox]

Forgive the presumption, @Mforstater, but you’re probably busy in the pub right now, or passing on all of the fan mail to you legal team so I’ve made a new thread to carry on the fascinating discussion.

Round up your cats, rabbits and weasels, and let’s go!

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From thread one, here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

Thanks @EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

I've been using the link and PIN provided since Friday, without change.

@bellinisurge

Keir Starmer should read the exchanges very carefully. You can bet your arse that he is going to have to deal with this from the Tories in the next election. Not as skilfully done as Ben Cooper but it is coming. And he can't hide behind "Be kind"forever.

And I am sure the Tories are reading it too.

He certainly can't hide behind 'be kind' if it's blatantly obvious that the 'kindness' must only be extended to a group of males with a specific protected characteristic, and not equally extended as a value to anyone else in the population, particularly the female ones.

That is not 'be kind' as any kind of morally held value Kier: that just translates as 'stop resisting while I mug you for what those male people want'. The fig leaf these words provide has long since dropped off.

The fig leaf these words provide has long since dropped off.

"Be kind" is interesting, because what it suggests is "giving someone what they want". Or indeed something they don't need.

Which is quite disjoint from giving people what they need or deserve. That wouldn't normally be called "kindness". You'd maybe talk about "helping" or "supporting".

The subtext is very much giving people undeserved privileges.

Just idly checked Wiktionary, to see its definitions:

1. Having a benevolent, courteous, friendly, generous, gentle, liberal, sympathetic, or warm-hearted nature or disposition, marked by consideration for – and service to – others.

5. Gentle; tractable; easily governed.

Unfortunately I have to do stuff today but I'll catch up later. Looking forward to all the. MN humour

I've applied for a log in... How long does it take to receive it? I was hoping to watch today!!

I'm off out today, first job tonight logging on to this thread and the wonderful updates. Thanks for all your work.

pulling up chair to follow tweets and the much appreciated updates on here from our "fellow" supporters who are watching it live. Meant to be marking exams but that's not half as entertaining as watching various CGD senior staff squirm under questioning from the admirable Ben Cooper QC.
Skewered is the word that comes to mind ..................

Thank you for all the updates everybody. Do we know how the other side thinks it’s going? It’s very encouraging from comments here but is there a parallel website where the genderists are feeling their sides arguments are being well made and winning?

@BenCooperisaGod

And the question isn't just was she employed, it is also was there an intention to employ. The Gates application suggests there most definitely was, unless the Judge accepts CGDs explanation that this was a 'mistake'.

I wonder what today will have in store?

Whether she was employed also matters for the next piece of work because if she was then they not only didn't offer her the next piece, they also made her redundant despite there being work for her to do. That would be unfair dismissal.

I've been thinking exactly the same thing as @bellinisurge. I think Allison Bailey's case, coming so hot on the heels of this one, will make it even more difficult for politicians such as Starter to keep the TWAW thing up. Quite how they can reverse out of that position and survive I don't know.

There's still a little bit of me that wants the TRAs and allies to come up with a solid, rational argument for gender identity because otherwise we are left with the awful reality that Keir Starmer and the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, the SNP and Plaid Cymru (and other parties I don't know about), the judiciary, the entire medical establishment, big business, academia, the police and practically every other influential group in this country are led by and packed with people so credulous and so fundamentally sexist that they ran towards and embraced an ideology that would have severely damaging consequences for half the population and deny the scientific, material reality of sex.

But no, there really is nothing to this. We really are in a situation where all the powerful institutions in this country have fallen quickly and quietly under the spell of the gender cult.

Also, on the question of Maya's employment or the intention to employ, remember it's not a criminal standard of proof, it's balance of probabilities.

@Pluvia

I've been thinking exactly the same thing as *@bellinisurge*. I think Allison Bailey's case, coming so hot on the heels of this one, will make it even more difficult for politicians such as Starter to keep the TWAW thing up. Quite how they can reverse out of that position and survive I don't know.

There's still a little bit of me that wants the TRAs and allies to come up with a solid, rational argument for gender identity because otherwise we are left with the awful reality that Keir Starmer and the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, the SNP and Plaid Cymru (and other parties I don't know about), the judiciary, the entire medical establishment, big business, academia, the police and practically every other influential group in this country are led by and packed with people so credulous and so fundamentally sexist that they ran towards and embraced an ideology that would have severely damaging consequences for half the population and deny the scientific, material reality of sex.

But no, there really is nothing to this. We really are in a situation where all the powerful institutions in this country have fallen quickly and quietly under the spell of the gender cult.

Agree.

I'm a bit of an oldie, never really thought I wast much of a feminist, never been on a protest march but it's a cause I would gladly pick up a banner and protest about. Really should add taking part in a protest march to my bucket list!

Are we all waiting for the conference host to join?

I am waiting for the conference host to join.

Thank you in advance, @tabbycatstripy. You have been doing a fantastic job over the last days. I'm in awe.

Yes, you're awesome tabby, thank you! 😊

@Triotriotrio

I've applied for a log in... How long does it take to receive it? I was hoping to watch today!!

Did you get your login Trio? I’m waiting still.

@tabbycatstripy

Also, on the question of Maya's employment or the intention to employ, remember it's not a criminal standard of proof, it's balance of probabilities.

I think this is likely to be very significant indeed. It is a question of how probable it is that an organisation such as CGD would mistakenly list a person as an employee in such a huge grant proposal. It seems (to me, but I'm biased) that it is highly improbable.

The fact that the people they've put up as witnesses seem evasive rather than completely honest isn't helping their case imo. If you are trying to convince a panel of judges that your oral evidence is true and the paperwork evidence is in error, it is not ideal to have the judge intervene to insist you answer the questions put to you.

@Simonedinovoir

Thank you for all the updates everybody. Do we know how the other side thinks it’s going? It’s very encouraging from comments here but is there a parallel website where the genderists are feeling their sides arguments are being well made and winning?

Perhaps it's a parallel website in a parallel universe where unicorns and mermaids exist.

@Pluvia

I've been thinking exactly the same thing as *@bellinisurge*. I think Allison Bailey's case, coming so hot on the heels of this one, will make it even more difficult for politicians such as Starter to keep the TWAW thing up. Quite how they can reverse out of that position and survive I don't know.

There's still a little bit of me that wants the TRAs and allies to come up with a solid, rational argument for gender identity because otherwise we are left with the awful reality that Keir Starmer and the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, the SNP and Plaid Cymru (and other parties I don't know about), the judiciary, the entire medical establishment, big business, academia, the police and practically every other influential group in this country are led by and packed with people so credulous and so fundamentally sexist that they ran towards and embraced an ideology that would have severely damaging consequences for half the population and deny the scientific, material reality of sex.

But no, there really is nothing to this. We really are in a situation where all the powerful institutions in this country have fallen quickly and quietly under the spell of the gender cult.

Yes, it's very lowering, isn't it.

I used to hesitate to use the word patriarchy, because it sounded a little ott, I guess. But it's exactly what it is. If so many people, as you say, gleefully embrace a misogynistic ideology that lets them stick to women whilst getting pats on backs, there can be no other explanation. Society still considers women as lesser than.

See also homophobia. Dennis Kavanagh, I think it was, was saying he is now seeing the sort of homophobia that he hasn't seen for decades. Vocal disgust at homosexuality, etc.

And if our politicians, who wrote all the equality laws, are buying into the ideology, then they are also buying into the homophobia.

Perhaps that should be another question for our MPs. What is homosexuality?

No, not had anything 😔 I'm off work today and all poised to watch too!!

Yes, their evasiveness isn't going to help. But the EJ is likely to be familiar with administrative cock-ups in the workplace. I am not sure the proposal is the smoking gun. But I think the overall sense of them lying and wriggling might be.

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Another hard day's work coming up for you, Tabby. The sheer concentration Ben's having to exert must be completely exhausting.