Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 2

[Sophoclesthefox]

Forgive the presumption, @Mforstater, but you’re probably busy in the pub right now, or passing on all of the fan mail to you legal team so I’ve made a new thread to carry on the fascinating discussion.

Round up your cats, rabbits and weasels, and let’s go!

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From thread one, here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

Does anyone actually believe that AG is unaware that some women find the term 'cis' offensive? I'm personally finding it hard to accept the veracity of that one.

Similarly, I find it hard to believe that bullshit about the section of the grant application detailing Maya's role in the Gates-funded tax work being an 'error'. It's just not credible.

This think tank doesn't just sound unthinking - on the basis of its own evidence at this tribunal hearing it comes across as sloppy, negligent and potentially dishonest. And therefore also quite callous.

Can you imagine Amanda in the pub tonight - and random MNers see her and shout PENIS PENIS PENIS

Similarly, I find it hard to believe that bullshit about the section of the grant application detailing Maya's role in the Gates-funded tax work being an 'error'. It's just not credible.

There was a lot of back and forth about this - MP seemed to maintain it was "a mistake", but it seemed from the context that he was essentially saying it was "a mistake" as in, "I really regret that, should've thought how you'd react before I kissed her" rather than "I just tripped and my lips ended up on hers, honest, sweetheart". 🙄

Quantum Impact sounds, to me, like the latest dishwasher tablet from Finish.

@CriticalCondition

Every time someone mentions Quantum Impact I think ooh, sounds like a crap team on the Apprentice.

Was it not time travel in various amusing costumes? Bloke with sideburns? Cigar?

Have I segued into the A-team ...

'Quantum Leap is an American science-fiction television series ... It stars Scott Bakula as Dr. Sam Beckett, a physicist who involuntarily leaps through spacetime during experiments in time travel, by temporarily taking the place of other people to correct what he consistently discovers were historical mistakes.

Dean Stockwell co-stars as Admiral Al Calavicci, Sam's womanizing, cigar-smoking companion and best friend, who appears to him as a hologram and researches and shapes his opinions of the past. '

Some viewers may find the cigar references upsetting. But I'm sure correcting historical mistakes could be useful for those who find they've made a lot of errors over the past few years.

God i loved Quantum Leap.

I have my own thoughts on the chances of the case, which I won't share because IANAL. It is extraordinary to see the detail of what happened and what many grown up people with real jobs think about this laid out. I'm assuming the CGD case will be 'not an employee, end of' in an Eastenders kind of way.

@Redshoeblueshoe I totally heard that to the Kaiser Chief's "Ruby, Ruby, Ruby" tune...

I'm assuming the CGD case will be 'not an employee, end of' in an Eastenders kind of way.

Definitely not an employee.

Understandable blunder and misunderstanding given that MF was costed as an employee in the Gates grant but after (roughly) 30 sets of eyes on to different parts of that and (say) a similar number with some overlap for the inclusion in the legal pleadings, who could possibly thought any of the economists, factcheckers, wonks, or actual legal people would have read it, eh?

How very unreasonable to think somebody reads those bits of documents: that's for wonks and researchers, and, plausibly drafters of documents of some standing like legal pleadings. Yes, you might think a thinktank is awash with those, especially when caught up in legal proceedings, but obviously, we're mistaken.

I'm sure grant makers aren't at all punctilious about due diligence for this sort of this. How very tedious that this is being dragged up as at all relevant.

Tbf Sam is the only person who can legitimately claim to be trapped in the wrong body.

@BIWI

Quantum Impact sounds, to me, like the latest dishwasher tablet from Finish.

SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl

That's a good summary of the precis of Gender Ideology.

It starts from believing that it's right and works backwards from that.

That's why none of its adherents can actually explain what they mean, argue or debate coherently or use anything other than emotive language as a response to reasoned and measured articulations about reality.

@tabbycatstripy

You are a legend. Thank you.

[quote jenny5000]@tabbycatstripy

You are a legend. Thank you.[/quote]
Absolutely! Thank you so much, Tabby.

Tbf Sam is the only person who can legitimately claim to be trapped in the wrong body.

Surely including a named individual in a grant application would be done because you feel they add some weight and credibility to the application. And if you name them then the grant giver wouldn't expect them to be a contractor as that is too lose a link and if they are being sold to you then you want to be sure you have them? Ergo it would be a very deliberate decision to name them.

Also was Maya an employee as a visiting fellow?

@Lovelyricepudding

Also was Maya an employee as a visiting fellow?

I mean did she meet the HMRC criteria of being employed (regardless of what she was called)

Keir Starmer should read the exchanges very carefully. You can bet your arse that he is going to have to deal with this from the Tories in the next election. Not as skilfully done as Ben Cooper but it is coming. And he can't hide behind "Be kind"forever.

And I am sure the Tories are reading it too.

@Lovelyricepudding

Also was Maya an employee as a visiting fellow?

You might find the answers to some of your questions in the bundles.

Huge and grateful thanks to Tabby for such an amazing job well done.

Good luck, Maya. I hope your courage and conviction is rewarded appropriately.

@Lovelyricepudding

Also was Maya an employee as a visiting fellow?

That's what they need to establish. CGD are saying she wasn't. Maya's team are saying she was.

Uber have lost cases where they tried to claim that Uber drivers are self employed, not their employees and so it's not as simple as whether a person is PAYE or not.

And the question isn't just was she employed, it is also was there an intention to employ. The Gates application suggests there most definitely was, unless the Judge accepts CGDs explanation that this was a 'mistake'.

I wonder what today will have in store?

Does anyone know if I can re-use yesterday's link and pin to login today?

Does anyone know if I can re-use yesterday's link and pin to login today?

Apparently, yes - they're reusable.