Why can’t we let the words go and start separating by DNA

[Intheshit1]

Why don’t we separate spaces, sport, prison, domestic abuse, report crime stats etc by what DNA we have. Sure there will be some people that do not fit XX and XY but we can deal with those people on a case by case basis and they can join a group that suits them the best. I assume this is what happens generally anyway.

I could request to see an XX doctor for a smear test. And I would not be able to compete with XY people at Olympic swimming. Crime stats should be reported based on DNA. Hospital wards could be XX or XY. Side effects of medicines would need to be reported by what DNA a person has. It would be made very clear that people with XY cannot give birth and don’t need tampons and that XX people don’t need a prostate exam.

Why don’t we just go down this route. It seems that the gender/sex argument is never going to be won. But… you can’t argue with DNA. Surely.

From what I understand (or rather, fail to understand, but I am wrong in what I thought I understood) there is no such thing as man or woman. Gender and/or sex have been invented.

But also, scientifically, there are loads of sexes and/or genders that we have discovered now.

So no, DNA doesn't trump feelings, or your inner essence.

@AmbushedByTheCake

From what I understand (or rather, fail to understand, but I am wrong in what I thought I understood) there is no such thing as man or woman. Gender and/or sex have been invented.

But also, scientifically, there are loads of sexes and/or genders that we have discovered now.

So no, DNA doesn't trump feelings, or your inner essence.

Which other sexes have been discovered?

And if there are no such things as men or women, then as an adult human female, what am I?

But also, scientifically, there are loads of sexes and/or genders that we have discovered now.

So no, DNA doesn't trump feelings, or your inner essence.

I'm hoping you're being sarcastic... But just in case you're not - no there aren't lots of sexes. There are 2. Gender is just another word for sex-based stereotypes. We should be getting rid of stereotypes, not embracing them and basing laws and people's rights on them.

OP - you're absolutely right that such things as medicine, sport and crime statistics need to have their basis in sex not gender. But relinquish the word 'woman' in favour of 'XX' just because some men think they are women? I don't bloody think so!

Arguing with DNA is exactly what they do though when they deny sex based arguments.

Aren’t you talking about chromosomes rather than dna?

I’m not sure, but either way, I’m happy with sex segregation and basing that on the genitalia we each have.

Because it's not about words. I've already seen trans activists claim they're now "practically" XX because they're on hormones. They do not accept that there is ANY difference between women and them, so giving up words won't do anything.

Because that is far too logical, obviously.

No, that is the point isn't it? I have genuinely heard the parallel arguements that male/female is invented by Western culture - lots of different cultures have different genders. But, also, science has proven there are all these genders in our genes, or brains, or somewhere.

There is not a convincing science argument you can advance that distinguishes the reality of sex, or the sexes. Never minded it is needed for medical scenarios etc. Because, I think, there is brand new shiny science now. Or feelings.

No, that is the point isn't it? I have genuinely heard the parallel arguements that male/female is invented by Western culture - lots of different cultures have different genders. But, also, science has proven there are all these genders in our genes, or brains, or somewhere.

Both claims are nonsense, though. There's a lot of fake information about everything out there.

I'm really interested in the scientific evidence of "loads" of sexes. I'd love a link to a reputable scientific paper. I'm aware of male and female and I'm aware of the condition 'intersex' which varies in presentation and I'm aware of XXY but how many sexes is 'loads' and what are they?

How many of these newly discovered distinct sexes can bear children and what makes those sexes that can give birth to babies not the biological sex of XX aka woman?

This is fascinating and I'm looking forward to reading these scientific articles. Are they peer reviewed? Are any of them from the Lancet for example?

Gender is a social construct

Sex is biological fact

It would make things so much easier if people stopped using them interchangeably.

@AmbushedByTheCake

From what I understand (or rather, fail to understand, but I am wrong in what I thought I understood) there is no such thing as man or woman. Gender and/or sex have been invented.

But also, scientifically, there are loads of sexes and/or genders that we have discovered now.

So no, DNA doesn't trump feelings, or your inner essence.

Ooh, that sounds amazing! Real scientific breakthrough. Where did you read about this?

When I think about what it is to be a woman. To be XX.

It’s not my name. Or my hair. Or my voice. It’s not my job. My muscles. My fat distribution. My salary. It’s not even my ability to give birth. Or the fact I have breasts. It’s not the fact I can get ovarian cancer. It’s not my hormones. Or the fact I’m more likely to be a victim of domestic abuse and rape. It’s not that once upon a time I couldn’t vote. It’s not that I could go through dangerous FGM in certain countries. Bring a woman is something else in my opinion. Something that I can’t put into words. Something that you can’t pick and can’t buy.

My DNA builds me and other women to be very different to men. The way we work, the way we look, the way we smell, the way we feel.

A person with XY will never know what it’s like to be a woman. No more than I can know what it’s like to be a man…

@WouldIwasShookspeared

I'm really interested in the scientific evidence of "loads" of sexes. I'd love a link to a reputable scientific paper. I'm aware of male and female and I'm aware of the condition 'intersex' which varies in presentation and I'm aware of XXY but how many sexes is 'loads' and what are they?

How many of these newly discovered distinct sexes can bear children and what makes those sexes that can give birth to babies not the biological sex of XX aka woman?

This is fascinating and I'm looking forward to reading these scientific articles. Are they peer reviewed? Are any of them from the Lancet for example?

I would like to see them as well. I used to spend a lot of time in these debates on social media. Lots of links and websites and sources were shared on both sides.

But then I have no science specialism. I thought there was male/female, and then additional conditions or ongoing medical circumstances related to chromosomes or being intersex, that I couldn't claim any knowledge of beyond a surface reading in the media.

But any scientific parameters I advanced, in those hours I spend in those debates, were apparently obselete, or outdated, or offensive. The skeleton, DNA, biology, sex, atheletics, genetics - none of it trumps feelings.

So I've stopped debating, because I'm tired, and sad, and worn down. Women is not a thing you can define anymore.

Except a) very few people know their chromosomes and b) some conditons mean XX can present male and XY as female (e.g., Swyer syndrome), so it's impractical and doesn't solve anything.

Also, remember this is not only about excluding transwomen from female space, it would also force transmen to use female facilities. These are transmen, i.e., likely XX and therefore would be in your bathrooms and female-only spaces.
static01.nyt.com/images/2020/01/30/t-magazine/oakImage-1580405768393/oakImage-1580405768393-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale

So how do you get your chromosomes checked?

In most cases I’m not worried about chromosomes. It’s penises that I don’t want to share my space with.

When I think about what it is to be a woman. To be XX. It’s not my name. Or my hair. Or my voice. It’s not my job. My muscles. My fat distribution. My salary. It’s not even my ability to give birth. Or the fact I have breasts. It’s not the fact I can get ovarian cancer. It’s not my hormones. Or the fact I’m more likely to be a victim of domestic abuse and rape. It’s not that once upon a time I couldn’t vote. It’s not that I could go through dangerous FGM in certain countries. Bring a woman is something else in my opinion. Something that I can’t put into words. Something that you can’t pick and can’t buy.

My DNA builds me and other women to be very different to men. The way we work, the way we look, the way we smell, the way we feel. A person with XY will never know what it’s like to be a woman. No more than I can know what it’s like to be a man.

That doesn't mean that we should agree to pretend that the only way we can identify someone as a woman is by her chromosomes though. Having breasts (naturally), a uterus, being able to give birth does mean you're a woman. That doesn't mean there aren't women without those things, but anyone with those things is a woman. I am a woman. I'm not an 'XX' - because that's a scientific description of female chromosomes, it's not what an adult human female is called.

Bring a woman is something else in my opinion. Something that I can’t put into words. Something that you can’t pick and can’t buy.

That's beginning to sound a lot like what the TRAs say. Being a woman isn't something indefinable or hard to describe. A woman is an adult human female, of the class of human beings who have ovaries, produce eggs and have babies.

But how can a trans woman know what it “feels like” to be a woman? They can’t. Just like I don’t know what it “feels like” to be an octopus, or a black person or an autistic person. I can have a few ideas and can guess a few things but I couldn’t possibly know accurately.

Oh I completely agree Fairislefandango but I’m just thinking of a way we can win this argument. Every avenue is blocked. We get shouted down. Told we are wrong. Trend on Twitter for all the wrong reasons. Get called awful names.

How do we win this debate. I think the answer must lay in science.

So you'd all be happy to send someone who looks female, who's been raised female, who likely 'feels' female, into a men's bathroom just because they have Swyer syndrome and therefore have XY chromosomes?