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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Cass Review- Interim Report

314 replies

rogdmum · 10/03/2022 09:12

The Cass Review Interim Report has been released. 112 pages long and it’s such a bloody relief to read common sense.

cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

There’s so much in it, but emphasis on taking a holistic approach with a great chart on page 57 showing the complex presentations in and complex pathways.

And social transitioning has been recognised as an active intervention!

“Social transition – this may not
be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something
that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.” Pages 62/63

So much in it. So much. And there’s more to come as the review continues to work on the issues.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
OneEpisode · 11/03/2022 23:18

Mermaids choose the guidelines from NZ, population 5 million, a document written in Māori & NZ English?

Thingybob · 11/03/2022 23:33

@OneEpisode

Mermaids choose the guidelines from NZ, population 5 million, a document written in Māori & NZ English?
Yep, it needs to be read to be believed.

They also chose the BPS guidelines for Psychologists working with adults (18+) so not at all relevant to the cohort the Cass Review is looking at.

Helleofabore · 12/03/2022 00:38

It is interesting if they are linking to NZ. Did they then include this from the RANZCP?

www.ranzcp.org/news-policy/policy-and-advocacy/position-statements/gender-dysphoria

The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists recently updated their guidance last year. I wonder if Mermaids paid attention.

Last year, they warned that there is NOT ENOUGH evidence to recommend affirming only treatments or indeed any particular treatment plan. They said that underlying health issues should be treated at the same time. And warn that medicalisation of children and teens should be very carefully considered and thoroughly explored considering the ‘paucity’ of evidence at this time.

The Cass report confirms that 6 months on there is still no evidence to support affirmative only options, particularly for females.

If Mermaids were relying on NZ for their foundation, they obviously ignored the clinician body’s recommendation. Talk about cherry picking to find something to grasp onto.

WarriorN · 12/03/2022 04:45

Mermaids are shitting themselves because they know how much influence they exerted on the Tavistock and various clinicians.

They also know how much they've added to the trend in the media, as mentioned in the report.

There's many pages on previous mermaid's websites that I really hope are archived. I remember certain things written, I don't know how to then.

DrBlackbird · 12/03/2022 05:58

PMK

WarriorN · 12/03/2022 07:03

I haven't read the full report, do they reference what's happened in Sweden?

Datun · 12/03/2022 07:56

Mermaids are shitting themselves because they know how much influence they exerted on the Tavistock and various clinicians.

Yes, Polly Carmichael herself said so, didn't she.

Mermaids didn't even think any kind of psychotherapy was necessary before treatment!

Susie Green 🧜‍♀️
@green_susie100
Marci Bowers saying surgery should be allowed based on competency NOT age of majority. Psychological assessment should not be needed for surgery as this is not required for cisgender surgeries of ANY type. Removal of the sterilisation clause is key 💜 @Mermaids_Gender #WPATH2018

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3541977-Another-Mermaid-statement-about-Good-Morning-Britain-and-Caroline-Farrow?msgid=85831267#85831267

In fact, that entire thread is absolutely gobsmacking. I'd forgotten quite how involved in all this mermaids were/are.

NecessaryScene · 12/03/2022 07:57

I haven't read the full report, do they reference what's happened in Sweden?

Can't see anything directly - it actually doesn't seem to refer to recent policy changes elsewhere. International stuff is limited to the evidence base for the treatment.

I guess it's trying to stand on its own working from primary sources, rather than reference other similar reviews.

Datun · 12/03/2022 08:06

The post by @OldCrone in that thread on the 24th of March at 22.23 is eye-opening. The article can't be found if you click on the link, but OldCrone has copied and posted some of it.

Little fucking wonder that there is no evidence base for operating on children who play with the wrong toys.

NecessaryScene · 12/03/2022 08:13

The article can be found in archive.org, just paste this into its search.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/health/from-jack-to-jackie-why-i-had-sex-change-at-16-1-4018711

(I think Mumsnet blocks actual archive links?)

Datun · 12/03/2022 08:28

@NecessaryScene

The article can be found in archive.org, just paste this into its search.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/health/from-jack-to-jackie-why-i-had-sex-change-at-16-1-4018711

(I think Mumsnet blocks actual archive links?)

Thank you! I can see that it's recognised the article, but I can't see how to read it. Any tips?
YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/03/2022 08:33

Go back to the 2019 hit. It's there.

Thingybob · 12/03/2022 08:40

Mermaids didn't even think any kind of psychotherapy was necessary before treatment

The 'best practice' they link to doesn't see this as a requirement either

Some quotes from that document

Autonomy in the context of transgender healthcare involves transgender people being able to able to make informed choices for themselves regarding gender affirming care and being free from experiencing harmful pathologisation and other barriers to accessing this care.

While many trans people access psychotherapy for support with living in their affirmed gender, psychotherapy is not a requirement of accessing gender affirming care.

Include mental health issues as part of a holistic psychosocial assessment, for example discussion of anxiety, depression, risk of self-harm, while being clear that having mental health issues is not a barrier to accessing gender affirming services

Puberty blockers are considered to be fully reversible and allow the adolescent time prior to making a decision on starting hormone therapy.

There are also handy consent forms in the Appendix

The Cass Review- Interim Report
The Cass Review- Interim Report
WarriorN · 12/03/2022 08:59

I remember so many threads on mermaids.

I remember, when I had a lot more time, researching myself some of the residential and several of us finding old web links, some archived.

It might be worth revisiting and collecting a few together.

ResisterRex · 12/03/2022 09:05

I looked too, and either the wayback machine or archive had a lot of links on Mermaids. It's how I found a SW schools guide that they removed (which I'd saved but wanted the URL).

Datun · 12/03/2022 10:05

The article is from 2011.

Most people can see how this is all about stereotypes, despite the narrative changing. Once the pushback began against the sexism of using stereotypes to 'determine your sex', TRAs changed the narrative to claim it was nothing to do with stereotypes, but everything to do with an innate essence.

They could see that being evangelical about cementing stereotypes is not a good look.

However, when this article came out, they hadn't yet got that memo.

It should not be coming as a surprise to anybody that there is no evidence that hormones and surgical interventions can be a 'cure for toy preference'.

From the article where Jackie and Susie Green were interviewed. So presumably, a pre-approved publication.

That’s just what happened to Jackie Green.

She was born 18 years ago with all the physical characteristics of a boy and her parents named her Jack, but from being a toddler she acted like a girl.

She always wanted to wear girls’ clothes and play with girls’ toys.

From then on her life became more and more difficult until eventually her parents made the decision to pay for Jackie, as she was known by that time, to have £28,000 of treatment and complete gender reassignment surgery.

Some might query whether Susie, who was always a very open-minded mother, did enough to discourage Jack from playing with girls’ toys and wearing feminine clothes – both signs displayed from the age of three. Did she really try to intervene enough?

Oh good God yes,” she says. “I’ll be quite honest, if I could have had a choice I would have liked to have had a son who was completely heterosexual.

She didn’t really have many dolls, but what cuddly toys she had she would nurture and treat like babies, not at all like a boy.

But initially her dad just said: ‘I’m not having this’ and when she was aged about four he insisted we have a go at trying to stop her having anything girly.

Subsequently Jackie Green became depressed and suicidal, and was given hormone and surgical treatment.

Datun · 12/03/2022 10:05

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Go back to the 2019 hit. It's there.
Thank you!
Datun · 12/03/2022 10:07

If Susie Green is now claiming that this treatment should be exploratory, maybe it's less about covering her arse, and more about enlightenment?

She can't possibly re-read what she said 10 years ago and still agree with it, surely.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/03/2022 10:19

Thank you!

Did you find it?

It took me a while ...

tabbycatstripy · 12/03/2022 10:34

'I’ll be quite honest, if I could have had a choice I would have liked to have had a son who was completely heterosexual.

She didn’t really have many dolls, but what cuddly toys she had she would nurture and treat like babies, not at all like a boy.'

Christ.

DomesticatedZombie · 12/03/2022 10:47

We need a serious look at mental health provision - for all ages. Its staggering how poor current service is. Especially for children and yp.

Datun · 12/03/2022 11:03

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Thank you!

Did you find it?

It took me a while ...

I tapped here and there, but to no avail, so I opened a new tab to try again, and when I went back to the original tab hey presto - there it was.

So in answer to your question, yes, thank you, I did find it, but I don't know how!!

Artichokeleaves · 12/03/2022 11:07

@Datun

The article is from 2011.

Most people can see how this is all about stereotypes, despite the narrative changing. Once the pushback began against the sexism of using stereotypes to 'determine your sex', TRAs changed the narrative to claim it was nothing to do with stereotypes, but everything to do with an innate essence.

They could see that being evangelical about cementing stereotypes is not a good look.

However, when this article came out, they hadn't yet got that memo.

It should not be coming as a surprise to anybody that there is no evidence that hormones and surgical interventions can be a 'cure for toy preference'.

From the article where Jackie and Susie Green were interviewed. So presumably, a pre-approved publication.

That’s just what happened to Jackie Green.

She was born 18 years ago with all the physical characteristics of a boy and her parents named her Jack, but from being a toddler she acted like a girl.

She always wanted to wear girls’ clothes and play with girls’ toys.

From then on her life became more and more difficult until eventually her parents made the decision to pay for Jackie, as she was known by that time, to have £28,000 of treatment and complete gender reassignment surgery.

Some might query whether Susie, who was always a very open-minded mother, did enough to discourage Jack from playing with girls’ toys and wearing feminine clothes – both signs displayed from the age of three. Did she really try to intervene enough?

Oh good God yes,” she says. “I’ll be quite honest, if I could have had a choice I would have liked to have had a son who was completely heterosexual.

She didn’t really have many dolls, but what cuddly toys she had she would nurture and treat like babies, not at all like a boy.

But initially her dad just said: ‘I’m not having this’ and when she was aged about four he insisted we have a go at trying to stop her having anything girly.

Subsequently Jackie Green became depressed and suicidal, and was given hormone and surgical treatment.

A cure for the parents' problems.

So very much of this agenda is about meeting the needs of noisy, needy adults by doing stuff to women and children.

Datun · 12/03/2022 11:09

Some might query whether Susie, who was always a very open-minded mother, did enough to discourage Jack from playing with girls’ toys and wearing feminine clothes – both signs displayed from the age of three. Did she really try to intervene enough?

I mean, this is the writer of the article fully agreeing.

It's horrendous. Claiming someone is open-minded at the same time as asking whether or not they did enough to stop the child playing with certain toys that they don't deem suitable for his sex.

The fact that these are 'girls toys' is important, too.

I don't think you'd get the the same distain in quite the same way if a girl wanted to play football or climb trees. That is seen as perhaps not very feminine, but understandable, maybe even aspirational.

Whereas a boy playing with 'girls toys' is much more socially unacceptable. For God sake, don't try and inhabit the trappings of the inferior class.

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