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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Honestly podcast: "Watching Lia Thomas Win"

12 replies

beastlyslumber · 07/03/2022 17:28

Worth a listen - podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/honestly-with-bari-weiss/id1570872415?i=1000549160493

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NecessaryScene · 07/03/2022 17:45

Maybe if she didn't keep calling Thomas "she", it wouldn't take half an hour to explain why he shouldn't be competing against women...

The fact that it's even got anywhere near here shows we have to have zero tolerance for calling men "women" or "she".

This is the result.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/03/2022 17:57

Completely agree, Necessary.

beastlyslumber · 07/03/2022 18:03

Yeah I agree with this, and it was also very jarring to keep hearing it through all the narration. I'm not sure if they could even report on this story if they used the correct pronouns, though. I mean, they could, but they wouldn't be able to publish it.

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Misstache · 07/03/2022 18:27

It’s actually really important to have respectful moderate sources that still use pronouns and support Trans rights and the rest of it because this is a gateway issue for progressive, liberal people who can still see this isn’t fair.

6 months ago I would have been horrified by anything “terfy.” Literally just yesterday in a work related chat people started going on about JK Rowling and how awful she is because someone made a HP related reference and everyone felt the need to demonstrate how much they support TW. These are the cultures so many of us move in. So you can’t show someone an article that admits Lia is a man or they’ll just tell bigot and not engage.

For liberal people, having the convo where you support trans people but recognize sports does have a biological basis is really helpful. It definitely peaked me - and I’ve been peaking my super liberal sister. We started with the swimmer, and now she sent me a tweet about calling women uterus-havers etc. and was like “makes you think.” She’s in a job where you literally introduce yourself with your pronouns, but she’s starting to get fed up. She was bringing up Yaniv the other day too.

So this issue really can bring women in. Really, LT is so huge and male looking and it’s so blatantly unfair that only the most radical ideologues can support it. But if things look too “transphobic” it pushes people away. I mean, look at me, now I’m posting on the dreaded mumsnet because when this issue happened I kept seeing people make reference to here so I came looking to see what it’s all about. And now I’m reading about AGP. But be patient with people!

Misstache · 07/03/2022 18:27

*yell bigot

beastlyslumber · 07/03/2022 18:33

I get that argument, too.

On the one hand, I think if everyone just used the correct sex pronouns, this would be over in a heartbeat. TRAs were smart to aggressively push pronouns from the beginning, and women were too accommodating. So it would be great if people stopped pretending (in no world does Bari Weiss think LT is a woman).

But on the other hand, I think a lot of people are very far gone down this path and I agree there need to be ways to allow people into the conversation.

Above all, I feel so sad and angry for the girls and their families. All their sacrifices and dedication gone for nothing. That's the key message of this piece and I think it's important to keep saying it.

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alewifey · 07/03/2022 19:09

Hi, does anybody know whether there are transcripts available for Deaf audiences? Thank you

lovelyweathertoday · 07/03/2022 19:23

As Posie Parker says, we'd get there so much faster if people used the words he and she accurately. I would do it here, but then I'd get deleted and have not be able to express my views here.

How has it come to this that calling a man a man is considered so offensive that it has to be deleted?!

beastlyslumber · 07/03/2022 20:04

@alewifey

Hi, does anybody know whether there are transcripts available for Deaf audiences? Thank you
I think if you go to Bari Weiss' substack, there is a written version of the podcast... just found it! bariweiss.substack.com/p/watching-lia-thomas-win?s=r
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MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 07/03/2022 20:14

I think there's a lot of truth in what you say, @Misstache. If we had listened to Germaine Greer, and others who 'got' this issue 10 years ago, we should never have accepted using female terms for people who are biologically male, or vice versa. We could have been accepting (as 99.99% of so-called T**Fs are), of people's right to adopt whichever gender stereotypes they prefer, without pretending that that magicked away biology.

But that horse has well and truly bolted, and I think you are right that it would now be counter-productive. We don't need to win over people who already agree with us - we need to win over the ones who don't.

That said, I think it is important to use 'mixed sex' not 'gender neutral'. It's easier and less confrontational to talk about sex with regards to services/spaces/sports than to "misgender" individuals.

beastlyslumber · 07/03/2022 20:16

I've been thinking about Germaine Greer lately. She got taken out early on, but what she said was so right.

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MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 07/03/2022 20:19

@beastlyslumber

I've been thinking about Germaine Greer lately. She got taken out early on, but what she said was so right.
Which is why it was so important to TRAs to shut her down as an out of touch old witch.
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