No debate means no understanding

[greengoose21]

I read an article in the Guardian this morning, in which the author says the following:

"According to gender-critical feminists, men who voice their trans-inclusive beliefs on gender identity are bullies and misogynists. It is common among such men to desire the dismantling of patriarchy. I am one of them. Yet I believe the result of the gender-critical argument is that gendered stereotypes are maintained, and patriarchy is consolidated."

It's made me feel so utterly frustrated. He is making a claim that is the complete opposite of what all the GC people I know actually think. And it's maddening, because his entire point in the article is that people should be able to wear what they like. I know, right, just imagine that!

This is where no debate brings us...to a point where people can fundamentally misunderstand and misrepresent their "opponent's" position, because they haven't had a chance to hear/listen to it through the screams of "transphobe".

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2022/mar/06/mens-clothes-have-always-been-a-way-to-unpick-the-locks-of-gender-charlie-porter?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

It's the back end of that quote that's annoyed me by the way...surely the words "Gender Critical" should give him a clue...

They don't care, they only care that they defeat us. It's a dirty war.

You're tellING me a supposed journalist lacks the ability to seek out GC arguments and voices. Mate, within 48 hours of the J K Rowling slander story, I'd found fwr for the first time, read the GC position across a few threads and gathered the basics. No degree in journalism, no contacts, no canvassing opinions. Easy.

So either this journalist is a liar or incredibly inept. I know which one I think.
(Not clicking on the article as don't want to give them traffic)

I read that and desperately wanted to have a word with him.

To be fair, I don’t think it’s a journalist. It’s some kind of fashion person.

It’s interesting, though. So many guardian articles wouldn’t even mention that there is a gender critical viewpoint. What he said appears to be a misunderstanding that is so easy to correct. I reckon if he spent an afternoon with someone that is actually gender critical, he’d be on our side. He wants men to be able to wear what they want. I doubt that he would think doing so would make them not men.

He's not a journalist though..he's a designer I believe.

@DontAskIDontKnow

I read that and desperately wanted to have a word with him.

To be fair, I don’t think it’s a journalist. It’s some kind of fashion person.

It’s interesting, though. So many guardian articles wouldn’t even mention that there is a gender critical viewpoint. What he said appears to be a misunderstanding that is so easy to correct. I reckon if he spent an afternoon with someone that is actually gender critical, he’d be on our side. He wants men to be able to wear what they want. I doubt that he would think doing so would make them not men.

Exactly this. Not even an afternoon...ten minutes would probably do the trick. I feel like the guy has "Gender Critical" written through him like a stick of rock...but he's believing the transphobia crap and the 'no debate' means that the alternative viewpoint doesn't get airtime

It's not like there aren't any bestselling books explaining it to him - he could just walk into any major bookshop, like Waterstones, and ....oh.

Any way we can get an address for him and send him a book?

Hanlon's Razor ("never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity") gets rigorous use when it comes to this debate. It is astonishing how little some people understand very simple facts - like the idea that someone who is 'gender critical' is ... wait for it ... critical of gender.

I was going to start a thread on this! It's just another person who has to lie about what we say to seem right.

It's all they have.

@greengoose21b

He's not a journalist though..he's a designer I believe.

He's a fashion writer according to his bio. Not doing much to destroy the trope that fashionistas are a bit vacuous is he?

And it's extremely telling that he chose to say "voice their trans-inclusive beliefs on gender identity" rather than "say that they believe there is a special feeling people can have that literally changes them from men to women and vice versa, and sex is irrelevant".

Hmmm.. could associating physical sex with masculine and feminine stereotypes so strongly that the latter determine the former maintain gendered stereotypes and consolidate the patriarchy?

No. No, it's the gender critical feminists who are doing that.

Aaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhh why must they always do this?

I'd expect anyone writing an opinion piece to have at least a basic understanding of the facts. I mean, I wouldn't write one about Palestine or Putin because I have the self reflection skills to understand that I am not an expert so I'd have to do a lot of research to write a worthwhile opinion piece.

If I was feeling less than generous I'd say his self confidence at writing on something on which he has zero understanding is a shining example of his male privilege overriding his common sense and understanding of his limitations.

I read this piece last night and my first thought was "What terrible writing" followed by "So, it's true, gender ideologues really think it's all about the clothes".... How many times he used the word "gender", I lost count.
It beats me why he had to take a swipe at feminists. Don't we say "Wear what you like"....?
The whole article is pure guff.

I'm aiming to get go to that V&A exhibition so I hope it's more thoughtful than that article. It's because of writing like this that I can no longer bear to read Vogue, and that's hard to forgive.

I like the part where he says he wants to smash the patriarchy as if this is a novel concept feminists have never heard of.

I really hate it when men appropriate feminism to push their agenda.

The way I see it, it’s just the absence of basic logic. So basic, that some people can’t actually see it.

@VenezuelaChant

I like the part where he says he wants to smash the patriarchy as if this is a novel concept feminists have never heard of.

Guys, guys, wait, I've got this BRILLIANT idea ... WHAT IF WE LET WOMEN WEAR TROUSERS?

I tend to think he's wrong and hasn't really understood the idea. But it's not totally unreasonable to say, I think this philosophy, in the end, will have results it doesn't necessarily intend.

I do think this is the kind of discussion that could be easily sorted in a good face to face conversation. Not that he'd necessarily change his mind, but he would likely understand the argument being made more clearly.

' uses clothing to soar beyond gender'

Today, as on most days, I am soaring beyond gender in a shapeless garment of no fixed provenance.

'I co-run a queer rave in London called Chapter 10, which from the beginning has been actively non-gendered. At our rave the other month, it seemed like everyone young in the crowd, no matter their gender, was wearing a camisole. Using their clothing, this new generation is unravelling gender for themselves.'

Camisoles! Outrageous!

This sounds fab for a Mumsnet outing. I propose we all muster our collective camisoles (that's a vest, right?) and attend with sandwiches, Kendal Mint Cake, and flasks. Happy to unravel at this lovely sounding event.

Man, mansplaining feminism wrongly.

Just. Fucking. Listen.

The thing is, we're fighting against a massive disinformation campaign form TRAs. Just look at the way they have twisted JKR's words, for example. Most people just rely on their "tribe" for information. I don't know what we do about that, really.