No debate means no understanding

[greengoose21]

I read an article in the Guardian this morning, in which the author says the following:

"According to gender-critical feminists, men who voice their trans-inclusive beliefs on gender identity are bullies and misogynists. It is common among such men to desire the dismantling of patriarchy. I am one of them. Yet I believe the result of the gender-critical argument is that gendered stereotypes are maintained, and patriarchy is consolidated."

It's made me feel so utterly frustrated. He is making a claim that is the complete opposite of what all the GC people I know actually think. And it's maddening, because his entire point in the article is that people should be able to wear what they like. I know, right, just imagine that!

This is where no debate brings us...to a point where people can fundamentally misunderstand and misrepresent their "opponent's" position, because they haven't had a chance to hear/listen to it through the screams of "transphobe".

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2022/mar/06/mens-clothes-have-always-been-a-way-to-unpick-the-locks-of-gender-charlie-porter?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Interesting that everyone young wearing a similar item of originally women's clothing is seen as "non-gendered", rather than wearing any item of men's or women's clothing as they choose.

Gargh! And, as usual, no comments allowed. Presumably because it's his opinion and he'd cry if we disagreed!

I don't think the Guardian have allowed comments on "Comment is Free" (lol) pieces on trans issues since about 2015.

By using extravagance and the theatre of clothes, they can encourage the loosening of oppressive societal norms.

I don't want to dismiss this as complete bollocks, because he clearly knows a lot more about menswear than I do. But it is complete bollocks isn't it? How is the causation supposed to work here? Is there any historical correlation between trends for men to dress flamboyantly and "the loosening of oppressive social norms?"

Well I can remember men dressing much more flamboyantly than now between the mid 60s and early 80s, so yeah possibly some correlation.

I was looking at a book on men's fashions from the seventies the other day. And - yeah, obviously they all look ridiculous but there was a lot of colour, sensuality, and playfulness which has since disappeared again from men's clothes.

But as we all know, these men could dress in extravagant and gender-bending ways and still hold the same old views about women at work, rape, or who does the childcare.

So I'd support men being able to dress in less constricting ways, but feminism is about who has power, who has freedom, who has legal rights. Everyone turning up at the disco in the same frock is trivial.

I think the piece is from the Observer, which does allow a nuanced discussion. It could be worth writing to their editor/letters page. That paragraph reads like it was hastily inserted to play to the gallery or perhaps the editor of that section?

It's a wilful misunderstanding in my estimation, OP.

@Floisme

Well I can remember men dressing much more flamboyantly than now between the mid 60s and early 80s, so yeah possibly some correlation.

Correlation is not causation, though.

But as we all know, these men could dress in extravagant and gender-bending ways and still hold the same old views about women at work, rape, or who does the childcare.

So I'd support men being able to dress in less constricting ways, but feminism is about who has power, who has freedom, who has legal rights. Everyone turning up at the disco in the same frock is trivial.

This, times a million

Guys, guys, wait, I've got this BRILLIANT idea ... WHAT IF WE LET WOMEN WEAR TROUSERS?

NOOOO! That cannot be done! There is no way that women can wear trousers!

Is it not all just decadent window dressing?

A man wearing false eyelashes and a twinset has absolutely no bearing on child refugees escaping FGM, or the rape conviction rate, or anything of consequence, really.

It's all personal liberation, with absolutely no thought given to class issues. A road of personal discovery ... I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I think it's a reach to suggest clothing choices can have any impact on society.

The other way round, sure.

Women's fashion/clothing changed dramatically in wartime and has continued to reflect changing social positions.

Fashion can be a comment, or a reflection, or an artform. That's all reasonable. I don't think it can actually really instigate change, though.

Correlation is not causation, though.
Agreed but the question was about correlation.

It amazes me how wrong TRAs get the GC position. Although I think it's actually wilful blindness, because if they spoke of what we really want to achieve they know it would seem far too reasonable.

Better to portray GC feminists as dried up trad wives who can't get laid, jealous of their fabulousness.

@allmywhat

By using extravagance and the theatre of clothes, they can encourage the loosening of oppressive societal norms.

I don't want to dismiss this as complete bollocks, because he clearly knows a lot more about menswear than I do. But it is complete bollocks isn't it? How is the causation supposed to work here? Is there any historical correlation between trends for men to dress flamboyantly and "the loosening of oppressive social norms?"

Men used to wear makeup, huge powdered wigs and extremely flamboyant clothes. Men were the first to wear high heels. And pink was once a colour for boys, not girls. He's talking absolute bollocks.

By using extravagance and the theatre of clothes, they can encourage the loosening of oppressive societal norms

Maybe this is what the women of Afghanistan have got so wrong. To overthrow the Taliban, just throw off your burkha and liberate your inner camisole-wearing freedom!

There's a link to his blog under his byline. I've just scrolled through. He's more of a picture than a words guy but doesn't appear to have written anything since 2019 . He runs/ran a gay club in Hackney and there are quite a few photos.

Looking at them, I would conclude that Charlie, like some gay men, doesn't really know or like any women. We are support humans who are only useful inasmuch as people to explore and exploit for signifiers and decorations of femininity. Not people.

Anyone engaging in good faith will have read JK Rowlings essay after it hit the headlines to see for themselves and realised how much hyperbole and exaggeration there is around what she actually said.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone still spouting the 'gender critical means enforcing stereotypes' is either stupid, lazy or self-righteous to the point of dangerous intolerance. I've lost all patience for it

The 'transphobia' bit in this article in the Guardian Saturday magazine about how to talk to kids about grown-up things infuriated me - tolerance and respect of course fine, but on the one hand they refer to gender stereotypes as negative then immediately go from 'boys can wear skirts' to 'wearing clothes of the opposite gender = trans'. FFS
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/feb/03/dont-tell-us-the-bad-news-all-at-once-how-to-talk-to-kids-about-grown-up-things

He's a right Charlie

" Anyone engaging in good faith will have read JK Rowlings essay after it hit the headlines to see for themselves and realised how much hyperbole and exaggeration there is around what she actually said"

And now for anyone who cannot be bothered the short version is available - JKR wants to keep rapists out of women's prisons.

Good God! She's an absoluteMONSTER!!

From the "abortion" section:

This can be expanded on as a child gets older, to reflect the many reasons behind this decision, she says. “The important common thread is choice, the fact the pregnant person shouldn’t be judged, and the use of factual language such as ‘termination’, ‘abortion’ and ‘foetus’.”

And female. And mother.

@Ereshkigalangcleg total madness - I might write a complaint, in the light of what’s happening in Scotland something along the lines of: the issue is so complex that even political leaders struggle to make sense of it, it’s ok for kids not to accept everything adults who make them uncomfortable tell them and by the way people who get pregnant are women, plus some trans men or female born non-binary people.

As if kids need to be fed ideology like it’s fact!

I actually think it’s some sort of gaslighting.