Who is the most vulnerable to domestic abuse and violence? Women or trans women?

[rabbitwoman]

In the wake of SMP Robison's statements in Holyrod this week, I have seen so many people up and down twitter (and once in a real life conversation) that trans women are more vulnerable to domestic violence and abuse than women.

I am wondering exactly where this comes from and why it is said so confidently.

Does no one ever question it when they hear it? Just a very quick bit of mental maths shows me this is nonsense, knowing as I do dozens of women who have been victims of abuse and domestic violence, but I only know three trans women altogether.

How does this maths stack up, is it just an outright lie with no evidence or is there actual evidence and statistics to back it up? Because next time someone trots it out I would like to be able to rebuke it....

(although if it is true, surely that's a very concerning trend that we should be a lot more aware of?)

@HollowTalk

So does that mean that wives of transwomen are violent towards them? I don't think I've heard even one case of that reported in the press.

I was thinking about those who have XY partners. Agree very unlikely that the XX partners of transwomen would be violent towards them.

Oh, and course, we as grown arsed adults are not able to focus on multiple things at once. So, no one fighting for maintaining single sex provisions could possibly be intelligent enough to fight for women's rights on many fronts.

Is that another one of underlying messages as well?

I mean, that is massive. That has blown my mind. You mean we can walk and talk at the same time!!!!

if Thanos snipped his glove and gender dysphoria disappeared and being trans was no longer a thing, the situation for cis women would not materially improve.

So, you don't think that the investment in single sex spaces and other provisions for women would go back to allowing providers to seek funding that is unconditioned on them also including transitioned males would be of benefit to traumatised women and their children?

good to know.

Like a PP I wouldn’t be surprised if as a %, trans women suffered more harassment and verbal and physical abuse, especially from those not known to them.

I would not expect the number to be higher for domestic abuse.

But real terms numbers will clearly be much lower.

And to those supporting the ‘let’s address violence on general’ admonishments, do you say that kind of sentiment to other rights movements?

Or is it just women? And just the women who don’t include a subset of males like you feel they should?

I wouldn’t - just about every woman (and girl from about 12) has had comments and hands on.

Someone who is physically larger than your average woman and who had, say been brought up with ‘boys’ sports and activities (DH and DS both did rugby and boxing at school - I had netball and fending) might be better places to ‘look after themselves’ than a girl who has been conditioned to be polite, not make a fuss, be kind…

@allmywhat

Sorry should have RTFT, see it’s already covered. The endless lies this movement produces are absolutely contemptible.

What do you mean "endless lies"? The whole edifice is nothing but lies from start to finish.

@Helleofabore

And to those supporting the ‘let’s address violence on general’ admonishments, do you say that kind of sentiment to other rights movements?

Or is it just women? And just the women who don’t include a subset of males like you feel they should?

Hey, all lives matter don't you know?

Victimhood Olympics is never good

if Thanos snipped his glove and gender dysphoria disappeared and being trans was no longer a thing, the situation for cis women would not materially improve.

It would improve for me, and I’m barely affected by the bullshit. I’d be able to openly take part in feminist activism, I’d stop worrying about the erosion of women’s rights attendant on “woman” becoming an undefinable and unspeakable word, I’d book myself a bra fitting, I’d have the comforting knowledge that if my relationship breaks up I’d once again be able to meet women on dating apps like I could back in the mists of 2016, and I’d no longer be insulted by delusional people claiming that women are a (sexist and cringeworthy) idea in a man’s head. And I’d be pleased to never again encounter a mixed sex toilet. 🎉

When you’re talking about rape victims with PTSD currently denied women only rape crisis services, the schoolgirls who don’t drink water in the day because of the lack of female-only toilets in their school, the trans widows, the abused women living in shelters with men and with nowhere else to go, the women locked up in prison with serial rapists and serial killers, it’s completely insane to imply there would be no improvement in their situation.

The trans is a red herring here.
Men are much more violent in relationships than women.

So they are surely at exactly the same risk as any man in a relationship with another man.

Those in relationships with women are at extremely low risk.

Wonder if Catherina ever goes onto men's rights or incel forums and asks what about the women?

I am still rather surprised that Catharina felt it was in anyway appropriate to post that cartoon as a simile for women Pointing to trans individuals as the culprits.

Yes. We know that trans individuals are not the ‘only culprits’. And furthermore, we know not all trans individuals support male inclusion in female single sex spaces and other sec dependent provisions needed to deal with male violence.

And yet, the cartoon was deployed.

For all those reading along, do you see it yet?

@Masdintle

Wonder if Catherina ever goes onto men's rights or incel forums and asks what about the women?

I was about to ask something similar - are all the 'it's not a competition' posters popping over to Twitter and other platforms to admonish those claiming that transwomen are subject to higher levels of domestic abuse that 'it's not a competition'?

Somehow, I don't think so.

This whole thing is reminding me of the harassment of the Counting Dead Women project to include transwomen killed in the UK in their list in 2019(?). Except...there weren't any. And hadn't been in the previous 3 years. Never in Scotland. Instead of this being viewed (rightly) as a good thing, it was somehow, bizarrely taken as an example of transphobia to not include these non existent numbers.

And you believe that you are on the right side of history?

CatherinaJTV is on the side of history, we’re fighting for herstory to be heard.

Are people poor mental health more likely to be in violent relationships? Probably.
Are transwomen more likely to have poor mental health? Probably.
Are people with submissive fetishes more likely to be in relationships with violent men? Possibly.
Are transwomen more likely to have submissive fetishes? Possibly.
Are transwomen more likely to indulge in other risky life choices, such as drug taking? I don’t know, but that might also impact on risk.
There are lots of things that might place transwomen at higher risk than other men, but they may not actually be due to being trans. There may be correlation, but not necessarily causation.

I know three transmen who seem incredibly vulnerable to abuse to me. I hope they will be ok as they are all really financially and socially privileged in every other way. But they are young, small, slight females living as men and convinced that surgery will be in their futures. I am scared for them.

But of course lack of sex based data will mean that transmen in relationships with women, nonbinary males in relationships with men, women in relationships with women and woman in relationships with transwomen will all be lumped into one group with zero information about actual risks. I wonder who benefits.

It seems pertinent to post here a link to a twitter thread by Laurie penny.

She seems very distressed at responses to her book, and I am wondering if, were she surveyed, she would report that as abuse and it would appear in statistics as abuse?

twitter.com/PennyRed/status/1500536551796846594?t=72qcqyIB2y4JmWI9pAqMOg&s=19

Oh cripes, sorry sorry, just realised I have misgendered them and I really really didn't mean to.

So three, (or was it four), reviews that pointed out the discrepancies in LP’s book, and tied it to the discrepancies in LP’s thinking and those 3 or 4 women ‘destroyed’ LP’s book launch?

The other sycophantic reviews made no difference?

I can only imagine what Grace Lavery will say about the flop of their ode to their penis.

Does it never occur to LP that their telling a nine year old girl that they should look away from a semi-erect penis as that male is sliding into a spa 1 metre away from her is an indication of the problem? That LP is and has been condoning males to get away with actions that should not be accepted?

That LP and all their mantra’ing is not actually believed by the majority of people, and no matter how much virtue signaling that those like LP do, it doesn’t change the reality.

The majority of people are not prepared to go past the ‘being polite and using changed names and pronouns’ to the suspend belief that people can change sex and miraculously become ‘the most vulnerable and marginalised’.

No. LP has painted women’s voices as hateful (a bit like posting a cartoon depicting a xenophobe, racist, capitalist monster and saying ‘you women are like this’. And no, I am not going to report that cartoon, but I suggest no one forget it was posted.) LP believed the extreme trans activists and intersectional feminists who fed them support and told LP to not listen to evil women. The script was probably along the lines of ‘Don’t look at that LP, look at this’, ‘Don’t look at the effect that elevating males above females is having on the females being pushed aside, keep focusing on the ‘most’ vulnerable and marginalised’. ‘Look this way, not over there.’ ‘No, don’t talk about the needs of women and girls, females! Talk only about fixing the problems for ALL people and centre on ‘this’ special group! No! Don’t discuss the women and children!’

Sound familiar? That trans people are vulnerable and marginalised is in no doubt.

It is the mantra driven ‘most’ that makes it unbelievable. Really? More marginalised and vulnerable than the many women that remain in very abusive marriages and family situations to protect their children? More marginalised and vulnerable than people trafficked and forced into performing endless sex acts? I could go on.

When people like Laurie Penny try to enforce others to believe in falsity, what do they think will happen? That we will all will just agree that 2+2=5?

I am sorry that Laurie Penny suffered very poor mental health. I hope that LP gets better soon.

Apparently it’s considered unprofessional to respond to reviews. But in this case, those involved in the hit-job are the ones who behaved unprofessionally.

Actually agape at that Laurie Penny thread. Just wow. What an awful person Penny is. You can't leverage your mental health issues to bully the reviewers who panned your terrible book. Well, I guess Laurie Penny can and is determined to. But there's a fucking reason it's considered unprofessional! What if everyone started doing it?

And again, I need to add that there are also trans people who fully support the maintenance of single sex spaces for female victims.

It is the extreme view that a subset of adult males should have access to those spaces. Pushed by lobby groups who have convinced government advisors that this is the righteous path. It does not reflect the majority view of the general population.

Even the most diehard of activist posters on MN have stopped trying to use that lie.

I don't think it's fair to say LP is bullying. They didn't @ the reviewers and it's ok to say you had a psychological reaction to a public panning. I don't feel any more inclined to read the book though.

gender dysphoria disappeared and being trans was no longer a thing, the situation for cis women would not materially improve

Oh Catherina you seen to have almost grasped that women's oppression is sex-based and has nothing to do with gender identity. Well done!