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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GRA Reform - Scotland

151 replies

BuffysBigSister · 03/03/2022 09:27

www.parliament.scot/-/media/files/legislation/bills/s6-bills/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill/introduced/bill-as-introduced.pdf

Some light reading for those who are interested

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Fenlandia · 03/03/2022 19:10

Astonishingly, the comments are open on that Times article

TheUsualShitshow · 03/03/2022 19:10

Placemarking for later when I've got the heart to read about this Sad

OldCrone · 03/03/2022 19:10

an accurate reflection of their gender ID?

How do we know what is an accurate reflection of anyone's gender ID?

Whereareyourshoes · 03/03/2022 19:15

Stonewall Scotland said: “We support a reformed Gender Recognition Act.”

It also has the support of Alex Cole-Hamilton, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, who said: “If the government attempts to water down existing proposals, we will seek to reinstate them. Gender reform is long overdue.”

The Lib Dems continuing their relentless campaign against women’s right to privacy and dignity.

WarriorN · 03/03/2022 19:18

No, there is no point.

Isn't this the bill that reduces the age to 16?

Then slaps a fine / imprisonment if they get it wrong Hmm

Effectively child abuse.

No wonder Scottish schools are grooming kids to accept gender ideology.

GRA Reform - Scotland
suggestionsplease1 · 03/03/2022 19:18

@OldCrone

an accurate reflection of their gender ID?

How do we know what is an accurate reflection of anyone's gender ID?

Well we will be able to tell that it's likely not a genuine way forward for that individual if there are a load of communications from that person saying along the lines of 'I'm going to prove what a stupid Act this is by declaring that I'm a man / getting my son / husband / brother to declare that he's a woman'.
ToriaB · 03/03/2022 19:24

Where the Times article says that "Trans men and women can and do lawfully use single-sex facilities. Reforming the act will not affect this." it's in the bit written by Florence Oulds, who is policy and public affairs officer for the Scottish Trans Alliance and quite definitely interpreting the law as it not being reasonable for a woman to object to a transwoman using the same facilities.

CharlieParley · 03/03/2022 19:30

@KittenKong

I thought you had to keep ‘being the gender’ to regain your GRC? Otherwise, why bother?
As there is no definition of what this means, one cannot fall afoul of that provision.
KittenKong · 03/03/2022 19:55

True. It’s like trying to describe the taste of water.

littlbrowndog · 03/03/2022 19:58

Robison

GRA Reform - Scotland
littlbrowndog · 03/03/2022 19:59

#shameonsturgeon

GRA Reform - Scotland
OldCrone · 03/03/2022 19:59

Well we will be able to tell that it's likely not a genuine way forward for that individual if there are a load of communications from that person saying along the lines of 'I'm going to prove what a stupid Act this is by declaring that I'm a man / getting my son / husband / brother to declare that he's a woman'.

That doesn't answer my question. I asked how we know what is an accurate reflection of someone's gender ID. How do we know if a person is genuine?

Supersee · 03/03/2022 20:02

@sevenchimneys

A trans woman at work has spoken about this saying that is not going to put anybody at risk in "single sex" spaces. That trans people are already using these spaces along and are not a threat nor are they undermining any women's rights.

Before coming across these boards I would have probably taken that at face value and agreed. But now I know more and I just can't. I'm sure that this person believes that, but how can they speak for the people who are a threat and will use this to undermine and threaten women's rights. I feel helpless in all of this. And genuinely scared for the future.

It's fucking shite being Scottish. I genuinely believe that most trans people suffering from a dysphoria want to live their most authentic life in the best and quietest way possible, and pose no harm to women. However, women don't know who that is, how can we tell. Same as most people going through airports are not terrorists, but safeguarding measures are in place to protect us from the tiny tiny minority that are out to cause us harm.

It's the same.

littlbrowndog · 03/03/2022 20:02

Who the fuck knows old crone. It’s a mystery

Neither does Shona Robison. She knows nothing. Pleasing her overlords. The Lib Dems and Green Party.

Terfydactyl · 03/03/2022 20:09

FPFW threaten court action every time a trans person farts. Doesn't mean they have a case or any hope of winning

Winning isnt the only point of court action. I mean yeah it would be great and all, but getting the message out to the rest of the female population via a court case reported in the news is equally the point.

This is why fwr got slashed into separate groups, why a lot of posts disappear, why attempts to shut us up happen regularly.

CharlieParley · 03/03/2022 20:12

@ToriaB

Where the Times article says that "Trans men and women can and do lawfully use single-sex facilities. Reforming the act will not affect this." it's in the bit written by Florence Oulds, who is policy and public affairs officer for the Scottish Trans Alliance and quite definitely interpreting the law as it not being reasonable for a woman to object to a transwoman using the same facilities.
That's a curious statement.

Men and women with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment can of course lawfully use single-sex spaces - those provided for their own sex.

Men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment can always use men's facilities. To exclude them from men's spaces because they identify as trans is unlawful discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment.

They can lawfully be excluded from female-only spaces, even if they have a GRC.

Crucially however, we have legal opinions from both sides of the debate setting out why there is a material difference between a man with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who has a GRC who is therefore considered to be legally female and another man also sharing the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who remains legally male.

Law Professor Alex Sharpe, a trans rights campaigner, for instance wrote in a paper that once a GRC has been issued, exclusion from opposite sex spaces is essentially impossible.

And there have been several papers and articles written by opponents of self-id who share Sharpe's view that a GRC conceys rights upon a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Rights that another person with the same PC but without a GRC does not enjoy. (They tend to differ on whether a GRC-holder can be excluded from opposite sex spaces or not.)

The EHRC's own guidance as it stands now also makes this distinction, as does their public statement on the difference between persons with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment with or without a GRC.

More importantly, we have a number of judgements where the court made this very point - a GRC changes the legal status of a person and conveys additional rights upon a person with a GRC that a member of the same sex without a GRC cannot exercise.

And because such persons have to have a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and a second medical report from a mental health care practitioner supporting the application, there is gatekeeping in place to safeguard women's spaces and services. (However imperfect that is

So this quote is toying with us. Telling a quarter truth where we need an honest discussion about the interplay between the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act.

We don't even have any such assessment now with the gatekeeping of the original Gender Recognition Act 2004 in place. There's also been no attempt made to investigate how the sex-based exceptions would work with a projected minimum ten-fold increase in GRC-holders.

Iluvfriends · 03/03/2022 20:13

Nicola Sturgeon is an absolute disgrace of a woman. I have no other words to describe how i feel.

BluerThanRobinsEggs · 03/03/2022 20:14

How do we know if a personisgenuine?

We borrow Layla Moran and her special locking glass.

WarriorN · 03/03/2022 20:19

Really not feeling the element of effective safeguarding in Scotland right now. Sad

GRA Reform - Scotland
Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/03/2022 20:24

FFFS!

OldCrone · 03/03/2022 20:26

The EHRC's own guidance as it stands now also makes this distinction, as does their public statement on the difference between persons with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment with or without a GRC.

We also have the MoJ's guidance for placement of prisoners.

all individuals who are transgender must be initially allocated to part of the estate which matches their legally recognised gender

This makes a distinction between those prisoners who have a GRC and those who do not. A male prisoner with a GRC making him legally female goes straight to a women's prison.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf

Terfydactyl · 03/03/2022 20:29

Well we will be able to tell that it's likely not a genuine way forward for that individual if there are a load of communications from that person saying along the lines of 'I'm going to prove what a stupid Act this is by declaring that I'm a man / getting my son / husband / brother to declare that he's a woman

Well a few problems with that
1 he might genuinely feel like a woman on the day, maybe he shaved his legs? Or like pips bunce is sometimes a woman, no one asks pips to prove feelings, or as we know from the trans widows threads come many transwomen.
2 who will report them and who to and who will do the checking and where will this check be done and how long will it take, any recompense if the checkers find out it's a truly trans person?
3 it's more likely to be women(fake) transing right now because many many men dont give a shit yet. And as nothing at all has to alter then how would anyone know anyway to report them. Its literally a sex marker thing, just paperwork apparently.

So say I change my sex marker at work , the GPs and on my passport but nothing else, not my name or any other thing, who will even know that I am now a man? Unless I go telling the whole street (who wont care btw)

Signalbox · 03/03/2022 20:41

Well we will be able to tell that it's likely not a genuine way forward for that individual if there are a load of communications from that person saying along the lines of 'I'm going to prove what a stupid Act this is by declaring that I'm a man / getting my son / husband / brother to declare that he's a woman'.

Why would anyone even care if it is a "genuine way forward"? Trans activists have been pretty successful in "deconstructing" the words "woman" and "man", rendering those words completely meaningless. Trans activist also argue that GRC's don't have any impact on anyone other than the GRC holder. So who really is going to care why someone is making an application. I mean really why shouldn't anyone apply for a GRC for any reason at all? If it's there as an option and doesn't affect anyone else, it really shouldn't be reserved for a few special people with rainbow souls.

OldCrone · 03/03/2022 21:07

This talk about a 'genuine way forward' for an individual. Why is this important? We're talking about a belief which a person says they hold. How can we know whether that is a genuinely held belief or not?

The GRA reform which is being discussed in Scotland is about a person saying they have a 'genuinely held belief' that they are transgender. It is impossible to discern whether their declaration is true or not. They can't prove it is and nobody else can prove it is not. So the penalties for a false declaration can never be enforced and everyone is what they say they are. It doesn't matter whether someone genuinely holds that belief or not.

ToriaB · 03/03/2022 21:20

Thank you @CharlieParley - that sets it all out very clearly. A quarter truth indeed!