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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Liz Truss shift

195 replies

purpleboy · 22/02/2022 09:41

inews.co.uk/news/politics/government-no-interest-banning-trans-people-single-sex-toilets-liz-truss-tells-equalities-tsar-1474413

Is this a shift in thinking from Liz Truss?

OP posts:
SamphiretheStickerist · 22/02/2022 12:14

where is the legislation that will make sure single-sex services are available for those who need them?

In reality? Invested in people like me who work for a service that provides single sex services and has no intention of changing. Even when they took our funding...

HipTightOnions · 22/02/2022 12:19

Restricting by gender =/= lawful. It has no basis in law.

Is it actually unlawful though? Can providers who choose not to categorise by sex instead choose their own categories, as long as they are not discriminating against a PC?

JellySaurus · 22/02/2022 12:20

Why should you have to fight for it, Samphire, when it is protected by law? The law should be fighting for the protection of your single-sex service, not allowing it to be de-funded and abused.

Artichokeleaves · 22/02/2022 12:21

I think essentially the women who want those services will have to advocate for them, fund them and go to court if necessary to justify them. I can't see any uk political party drafting legislation mandating single sex services by right.

Wow.

The inclusiveness and kindness and equality is just mindblowing in its absence. What a really lousy agenda this is.

highame · 22/02/2022 12:22

Maybe even bring discrimination suits for places that do really daft things like provide male only toilets but no female toilets.

I do think the impact on women is significant and no impact on men, therefore indirect discrimination and I think it could be argued.

Of course the best thing is direct action and that means us all tramping off to the male facilities and see what they think. It would be good to leave some leaflets for them to read. If this is all that's left, then this is what I'll do. I'm going to wait for Baroness Falkner to do her best with E10, but after that.....

OvaHere · 22/02/2022 12:22

@OldCrone

I think essentially the women who want those services will have to advocate for them, fund them and go to court if necessary to justify them. I can't see any uk political party drafting legislation mandating single sex services by right.

So teenage girls have to 'advocate for' and go to court to 'justify' having single-sex toilets and changing rooms in school.

Female prisoners have to 'advocate for' and go to court to 'justify' having a women-only prison where they are not at risk of rape by other inmates.

Elderly and disabled women have to 'advocate for' and go to court to 'justify' their need for a same-sex carer.

This seems to be what it is saying. The government are doing what they can to make this 'not their problem'.

I think they want or believe that market forces will dictate what happens but this doesn't allow for the reality of women and girls always being shoved to the bottom of the pile.

In a similar way the EQA provides a framework for disability provision and for disabled people to have rights but in reality they usually have to fight tooth and nail to get it also.

EyesOpening · 22/02/2022 12:24

@OperationDessertStorm

But also NB people (and all the others) can also use either. So they’re not even organising/segregating by ‘gender’. It’s a false sense of security.
I agree, where are the “cat gender” for example, facilities?
SamphiretheStickerist · 22/02/2022 12:24

@JellySaurus

Why should you have to fight for it, Samphire, when it is protected by law? The law should be fighting for the protection of your single-sex service, not allowing it to be de-funded and abused.
Sorry, that forst line was sarcastic. I have no intention of fighting, just saying Fuck Off!

So far that has consisted of telling Lotto that they are backing the wrong horse and that their decisions are unlawful, that relying upon Stonewall has devalued them, worn away their veneer of unbiased funding and shown them to be complicit in harming women's services across the UK.

We have told an individual philanthropist the same. The LA that we come under, Charities Commission have been informed of our intention to remain a woman's service, single sex as per the EA2010 and a whole host of other letters to various supporters.

We have been using the law to make our point for a while now. Lotto have nort responded!

borntobequiet · 22/02/2022 12:25

Truss was a committed advocate of Remain and is now an ardent advocate of Brexit.
Her beliefs evolve with her ambitions.

JellySaurus · 22/02/2022 12:29

I can't see any uk political party drafting legislation mandating single sex services by right.

It would be a retrograde step equality between the sexes. But there is a difference between mandating single-sex spaces and mandating the right to single-sex spaces. This already exists in the Equality Act. But this right is being chipped away. It needs to be strengthened and supported. It is ridiculous to expect every organisation that provides single-sex services to have to defend themselves in law or be blackmailed into making them mixed-sex.

EyesOpening · 22/02/2022 12:34

@PacificState

Tbh I don't agree. It definitely doesn't mean 'female-exclusive'; I know many, many women who will happily share facilities with TW. Don't forget that all the polling shows women are much more sympathetic to TRA positions than men are. Many (most?) women don't mind if a TW is in the M&S changing room. M&S are dummies (whatever the Per Una range might suggest); if most women strongly objected to their policy on changing rooms they'd go out of business. It's not happening. Most women do not feel excluded by these policies. I don't personally really understand why, but then I don't understand lots of things - why people voted for Johnson, why they voted for Brexit, why they didn't like Ed Miliband... we have to deal with things as they are, not as we'd like them to be.

some women will refuse to use trans-inclusive services. Many of them will be particularly vulnerable, eg survivors of abuse. Others will just feel unsafe because of typically male behaviour patterns. It's essential services are available for them too. But, in general, trans-inclusive services are not female-exclusive in the real world - because most women happily use them. (I've used an M&S changing room myself recently.)

With reference to M&S aren’t they closing down/removing a lot of the clothes departments and focusing more on the food? So that could be an indicator that women aren’t happy with the situation. Also, along with the pandemic, it could just direct them more to online shopping as they might still want the items, just don’t want to use the changing rooms. Or purchase in-store without trying on. Without directly asking, we’ll never truly know, I guess.
PacificState · 22/02/2022 12:43

@JellySaurus 'But there is a difference between mandating single-sex spaces and mandating the right to single-sex spaces' - what is the difference, in practice? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand it. Say I'm a rape survivor looking for group counselling in Brighton and no local provider offers single sex group counselling - how do I invoke my right to that service, other than by taking the council or local providers to court to force them to provide one? Or is that not what it means?

TheCurrywurstPrion · 22/02/2022 13:09

Mandating single sex spaces would require new law. Liz Truss is presumably indicating there is no intention to change the law.

The current political action is presumably an attempt to reinstate EA2010 as it was intended to work as it is becoming increasingly obvious that it’s application is currently skewed, as we can see from court cases being brought, where women are being harmed because of the wholescale failure to apply the exception that allows for single sex spaces.

Presumably, if it’s prøven over time that EA2010 is unworkable given proper guidance (realistically it hasn’t been tried) THEN will be the time for consideration of new laws to protect women.

For me the most interesting snippet was near the end of the article, where it addresses the claim that a GRC would suddenly gain significance:

Only a very small percentage of transgender people currently have a GRC and LGBT+ campaign groups have said the change would exclude the vast majority of the trans community.

The suggestions were strenuously denied by EHRC, which said it was “completely false to claim that we are looking to bar trans people from accessing spaces without a GRC” and referred to the reports as “misinformation”.

So what this appears to be is yet another false allegation made by those who don’t want women to have their rights reinstated. Again, the argument is being skewed by those with an agenda making up lies that public bodies then have to waste their time refuting.

It’s not surprising Truss and the EHRC are already sick of engaging, however when it comes to persuasion, making up strawman lies about what those with power are intending is not necessarily a great long-term plan.

Blessex · 22/02/2022 13:13

Liz Truss does not give our safe spaces away. No.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 22/02/2022 13:19

The AEA case seemed to say that you could not make a distinction between GRC holders and non GRC holders in accessing a space which would make sense as no one carries a GRC around and it’s illegal to ask to see it anyway. Designating a service/space as single sex, when this means biological sex and so excludes ALL TW with a GRC or not would make sense.

OldCrone · 22/02/2022 13:29

[quote PacificState]@JellySaurus 'But there is a difference between mandating single-sex spaces and mandating the right to single-sex spaces' - what is the difference, in practice? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand it. Say I'm a rape survivor looking for group counselling in Brighton and no local provider offers single sex group counselling - how do I invoke my right to that service, other than by taking the council or local providers to court to force them to provide one? Or is that not what it means?[/quote]
What the EA says is that it is legitimate to provide a single-sex space or service in some circumstances, but no service provider is required to provide a single-sex space or service.

So what this means is that service providers have the right to provide a single-sex service. There is nothing in the legislation which makes it illegal not to provide such a service.

PacificState · 22/02/2022 13:30

Ah I see thanks @OldCrone

Somanysocks · 22/02/2022 13:52

Those saying most women don't mind sharing with trans women are wrong in my opinion. None of the women I know would like it but we haven't been asked.

It is going under the radar. If I wasn't on this forum I would have no idea what is going on with our safe spaces being given away.

There is a trans woman in one of my local shops, I have conversed briefly with that person without batting an eyelid which probably made that person think I hadn't noticed, but I am polite.

I would however not want that person in the ladies loos, changing rooms etc.

CharlieParley · 22/02/2022 14:13

@HipTightOnions

Restricting by gender =/= lawful. It has no basis in law.

Is it actually unlawful though? Can providers who choose not to categorise by sex instead choose their own categories, as long as they are not discriminating against a PC?

That's a fair question and the answer is, yes, if they are not discriminating against a PC, they can categorise in any which way they like.

However, if a service excludes people on the basis of not falling into their chosen category, it may in practice be impossible not to discriminate against people with a PC.

Take gender. It's not a PC. There is no protected group sharing this characteristic. But an organisation says uses it anyway as a category to offer its services only to people who are defined as having "woman gender" by the organisation.

They therefore allow access to female clients who don't identify as men and to male clients who don't identify as men.

They exclude female clients who don't identify as women and male clients who don't identify as women.

Along comes a man who wants to access this service. Say it's a fully funded training program in STEM aiming to increase the percentage of women working in STEM and he has had challenges in his own life that means he certainly would benefit and he couldn't afford the training by himself.

The organisation refuses him access saying their places are limited to women and he doesn't meet their criteria for inclusion. He sues for unlawful discrimination on the basis of sex because the organisation allows other males access who are legally and biologically male just like him and therefore not women according to the relevant laws.

(The organisation cannot justify his exclusion by saying it's on the basis of him not sharing the PC of gender reassignment, because they have other clients who also don't share that PC.)

Along comes a woman who does not identify as a woman, but who remains legally female (has no GRC) and asks for a place, because again, this is a much needed opportunity for this individual. The organisation refuses, saying their places are limited to women and she doesn't meet their criteria of sharing a "woman gender".

She sues for discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment because the organisation allows other female people access who don't share that PC and their declared aim is to improve things for women, for whom the legal definition under equalities legislation applied to this case is "a female of any age". Which she is.

In both cases the organisation would lose, because discrimination is always unlawful unless the organisation applies one of the exceptions allowed for under the provisions of the Equality Act 2010. And those exceptions are strictly limited and there is no exception that allows an organisation to conflate two protected groups in the above manner.

(It is legal to combine two or more PC and offer a service only for disabled children or pregnant women or black men. But you cannot offer a service for disabled children for instance and then include some disabled adults or some children without disabilities and/or exclude other disabled children.)

JellySaurus · 22/02/2022 14:14

[quote PacificState]@JellySaurus 'But there is a difference between mandating single-sex spaces and mandating the right to single-sex spaces' - what is the difference, in practice? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand it. Say I'm a rape survivor looking for group counselling in Brighton and no local provider offers single sex group counselling - how do I invoke my right to that service, other than by taking the council or local providers to court to force them to provide one? Or is that not what it means?[/quote]
The reason single-sex services for women exist is that (a) women saw the need for them and set them up, and (b) this need was recognised and Protected in the Equality Act.

The only reason your putative female rape survivor might not find a women-only counselling service in Brighton is that MRAs successfully gaslit and bullied such services into becoming mixed-sex. Partly by claiming that the Equality Act barred them.

The right to this single-sex service is already mandated in the Equality Act. This right needs to be strengthened and actively supported so that anybody claiming that males should be given access to women's services gets the response "Don't be daft", rather than "Oh dear, yes dear, whatever you say dear, don't hit me, please, dear".

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 22/02/2022 14:23

Ive just been to marks

There are no signs on either changing room saying mixed sex

And none of my friends know they are mixed sex either

SevenWaystoLeave · 22/02/2022 14:29

The right to this single-sex service is already mandated in the Equality Act.

This is flat out false misinformation, often repeated on Mumsnet, but absolutely untrue. There is no mandate in the Equality Act for services to provide single sex provisions. The Equality Act states that it is lawful for service providers to provide single sex provisions in some circumstances - this is not the same as mandating it. It simply means they can if they want to.

If a counselling service wants to provide a service to everyone, regardless of sex or gender, this is legal.

If a counselling service want to provide a woman-only service which includes trans women, this is legal.

If a counselling service wants to provide a woman-only service which excludes trans women, this is legal, provided "exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim".

How inclusive a service provider chooses to be is up to them. There is no mandate, and it is never illegal to be more inclusive than you have to be, while it may, in some circumstances, be illegal to be less inclusive than you could be.

MangyInseam · 22/02/2022 14:33

It seems to me that she is saying the law will stay the same.

I am not convinced this is wrong. It often isn't a good thing for the law to be too inflexible when there are so many different circumstances for specific situations and organizations.

SamphiretheStickerist · 22/02/2022 14:35

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

Ive just been to marks

There are no signs on either changing room saying mixed sex

And none of my friends know they are mixed sex either

Try going into the men's and saying you are a man!

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/12/09/marks-and-spencer-trans-changing-rooms-baroness-nicholson-single-sex-spaces/

And many other articles around the same time.

There is no need for a specific sign... you take your chances!

JellySaurus · 22/02/2022 14:37

@SevenWaystoLeave

The right to this single-sex service is already mandated in the Equality Act.

This is flat out false misinformation, often repeated on Mumsnet, but absolutely untrue. There is no mandate in the Equality Act for services to provide single sex provisions. The Equality Act states that it is lawful for service providers to provide single sex provisions in some circumstances - this is not the same as mandating it. It simply means they can if they want to.

If a counselling service wants to provide a service to everyone, regardless of sex or gender, this is legal.

If a counselling service want to provide a woman-only service which includes trans women, this is legal.

If a counselling service wants to provide a woman-only service which excludes trans women, this is legal, provided "exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim".

How inclusive a service provider chooses to be is up to them. There is no mandate, and it is never illegal to be more inclusive than you have to be, while it may, in some circumstances, be illegal to be less inclusive than you could be.

I did not say this. I said that the right to provide single-sex services is mandated.
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