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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Liz Truss shift

195 replies

purpleboy · 22/02/2022 09:41

inews.co.uk/news/politics/government-no-interest-banning-trans-people-single-sex-toilets-liz-truss-tells-equalities-tsar-1474413

Is this a shift in thinking from Liz Truss?

OP posts:
SamphiretheStickerist · 22/02/2022 10:57

@HipTightOnions

Not quite, as personality types are not included n the EA2010 But yes, M+S have chosen to make their changing rooms mixed sex.

But, Samphire, they haven't just made them mixed sex/for everyone though. They are still "women's" and "men's".

And Liz Truss says transgender people are able use the facilities of their chosen gender.

So M&S etc are apparently segregating "by gender", although "gender" isn't covered by the EA either.

Ah! You misunderstand me. I don't give a flying fuck about gender. People can use the term to mean whatever they want, I don't care. I don't give it credence. The truth is always that there are only 2 sexes!

If some organisations wish to give gender credence then that is their choice. But is is not, and should never be, the default position.

And that is how I read LTs letter. Single sex exemptions exist. Legislation is clear. But transgender people should not be denied services as a blanket ruling. Choice...

OperationDessertStorm · 22/02/2022 10:59

But also NB people (and all the others) can also use either. So they’re not even organising/segregating by ‘gender’. It’s a false sense of security.

OvaHere · 22/02/2022 10:59

The more libertarian arm of the Tories aren't big on regulating business so I expect what they want is for any business or org to do what suits their working model best.

This of course works in both directions, they probably want companies and orgs to be confident they can invoke SSE if they choose and understand it's perfectly fine and legal to do so.

On the flip side some places - an LGBTQ nightclub for example, will probably want to have mixed sex spaces in line with what they believe and the gov probably doesn't want to interfere with that either.

I think Truss is hoping for a return to common sense and market forces dictating these decisions. Which does also put the onus back onto women to fight our corner e.g refusing to use a business or service (and telling them why) that does not accommodate women and girls safely or in a way that is dignified for us. Maybe even bring discrimination suits for places that do really daft things like provide male only toilets but no female toilets.

I don't know if she's being naive as to the extent orgs are being pressured over perfectly legal exemptions and how this has all come about.

I suspect it's more that they don't want it to become the government's problem beyond reinforcing what the EQA says which is if you want your org to provide a single sex service it is completely legal to do so.

OperationDessertStorm · 22/02/2022 11:00

@OperationDessertStorm

But also NB people (and all the others) can also use either. So they’re not even organising/segregating by ‘gender’. It’s a false sense of security.
Sorry that was meant to quote Hiptight onions
Manderleyagain · 22/02/2022 11:01

This is what I take her to mean:

  • ehrc should make clear to providers of (eg) women's services that they can restrict access on basis if sex (ie exclude trans women). That's lawful.
  • where providers choose to restrict access on basis of chosen gender instead (ie include trans women) they should be allowed to. The government has no plans to change this.

Both are lawful but are not the same.

The government obviously interprets EA as saying both are lawful, they have no plans to change that, and they support ehrc in making that clear.

PacificState · 22/02/2022 11:01

I can imagine that Truss has been told (or has decided - she's not a donkey) not to stir this pot any further for now. She does have a possible global conflagration to deal with.

Kishwer Falkner's interview with Holyrood Mandy (Mandy Rhodes - www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,kishwer-falkner-is-life-now-so-brittle-that-to-ask-questions-is-to-be-deemed-to-be-controversial) is worth a listen. Falkner explains clearly that it's the government's role to make legislation (the equality act, which they have no intention of redrafting right now) and the EHRC's role is to provide interpretation and guidance on those laws. It seemed to me that it was clear as daylight, from what Falkner was saying, that the upcoming EHRC guidance on single sex exemptions will provide a clear space for service providers to provide single sex services - in a way that the muddy language of the EA has so far not done.

After that, as PPs have said, it will be up to service users to use the service they want to use - be it single sex, trans-inclusive, whatever. And those providers of domestic violence and rape services who want to provide single sex services will have a much safer legal harbour from which to do so.

Basically, Truss can afford to be a bit ambiguous and not add a gender trashfire to her inbox right now because the next bit isn't her responsibility, it's the EHRC's. She's already given a very clear signal about the political direction she's following by canning the GRA reform. Reported remarks aren't significant right now. I might be being overly optimistic, but that's my reading.

Manderleyagain · 22/02/2022 11:02

I might be wrong because it's worded quite fudgily but I think that's it.

Manderleyagain · 22/02/2022 11:04

Pacificstate I think you are right. I listened to the interview too and agree.

PacificState · 22/02/2022 11:12

Yep @Manderleyagain cross-posted with you but basically saying the same thing! Falkner didn't sound to me like a woman who's going to be pushed off course. She was very polite but it came across strongly that she thought the behaviour of many of the activists is completely horrifying and illegitimate. I think they've mis-stepped by winding her up so much. She might get pushed out of her position if there's a strong enough political storm, but she's not going to give in just because some people jump up and down, and crucially she has the support of the government.

Manderleyagain · 22/02/2022 11:13

Ovahear I think you're right too about the tory approach.
It might mean women having to use the courts to show indirect discrimination by services that fail to provide a service on the basis if sex, and only provide the service on basis of 'chosen gender'.

But if at least it is made clear that it is perfectly legal to set up a service that is genuinely female only that will help. And it will be more difficult for orgs to give dodgy advice to service providers saying they will be breaking the law if they don't include tw in all f services/spaces.

Manderleyagain · 22/02/2022 11:15

Pacifucstate yes she was v impressive. Shes holding her nerve. The response to her is completely illegitimate. And even now after 4 yrs I'm amazed at the organisations that have joined in reporting the ehrc to the UN.

HipTightOnions · 22/02/2022 11:16

Thank you for your replies SamphiretheStickerist and OperationDessertStorm. Clearer now!

OldCrone · 22/02/2022 11:26

@donquixotedelamancha

The EA allows for single-sex services. Anyone who says they are the opposite sex can use the services designed for the opposite sex. Therefore there can be no single-sex services.

It's always been the case that organisations can do that if they want. No-one made M+S change their fitting rooms to mixed sex.

Tempting as it is right now, the government legislating to change that is an awful idea.

But the letter says:

"“The Government has no interest in changing the current situation where transgender people are able to use facilities of their chosen gender."

If transgender people can choose to use facilities for the opposite sex, how can anyone apply the single-sex exceptions in the EA?

Artichokeleaves · 22/02/2022 11:34

It will be up to service users to use the service they want to use - be it single sex, trans-inclusive, whatever.

Not wanting to be critical but 'trans-inclusive' in fact means 'female excluding', it is not the nice positive thing it is dressed up as. And using it hides the reality and makes it sound like a jolly nice thing no one should make a fuss about. Which is the point.

Single sex or mixed sex is the only factual reality of this.

Artichokeleaves · 22/02/2022 11:37

It's Schroedinger's law as usual.

It is simultaneously a single sex women's facility
And a facility that anyone of the male sex can use at will
And therefore in actual fact when the word salad is made, excludes females from women's facilities.

We're going to have to start the court cases for discrimination against females. Again.

OvaHere · 22/02/2022 11:39

What Truss/the government is doing is throwing it back to service providers to choose what they want to do and with that the responsibility for what happens thereafter. Which could play out over the longer term in a number of ways.

PacificState · 22/02/2022 11:44

Tbh I don't agree. It definitely doesn't mean 'female-exclusive'; I know many, many women who will happily share facilities with TW. Don't forget that all the polling shows women are much more sympathetic to TRA positions than men are. Many (most?) women don't mind if a TW is in the M&S changing room. M&S are dummies (whatever the Per Una range might suggest); if most women strongly objected to their policy on changing rooms they'd go out of business. It's not happening. Most women do not feel excluded by these policies. I don't personally really understand why, but then I don't understand lots of things - why people voted for Johnson, why they voted for Brexit, why they didn't like Ed Miliband... we have to deal with things as they are, not as we'd like them to be.

some women will refuse to use trans-inclusive services. Many of them will be particularly vulnerable, eg survivors of abuse. Others will just feel unsafe because of typically male behaviour patterns. It's essential services are available for them too. But, in general, trans-inclusive services are not female-exclusive in the real world - because most women happily use them. (I've used an M&S changing room myself recently.)

OldCrone · 22/02/2022 11:44

It will be up to service users to use the service they want to use - be it single sex, trans-inclusive, whatever.

What happens if all services decide to be 'trans inclusive', and therefore exclude some women?

And sometimes women and girls won't have a choice of which service to use. Female prisoners can't just go somewhere else if the MoJ decide men who say they are women should go to women's prisons. What about girls in schools if they all decide to make the toilets and changing rooms mixed sex?

PacificState · 22/02/2022 11:44

M&S aren't dummies, that should say...

OldCrone · 22/02/2022 11:49

some women will refuse to use trans-inclusive services. Many of them will be particularly vulnerable, eg survivors of abuse. Others will just feel unsafe because of typically male behaviour patterns. It's essential services are available for them too.

If it's a free choice for organisations to provide single-sex or mixed-sex services, where is the legislation that will make sure single-sex services are available for those who need them?

PacificState · 22/02/2022 11:56

@OldCrone I think essentially the women who want those services will have to advocate for them, fund them and go to court if necessary to justify them. I can't see any uk political party drafting legislation mandating single sex services by right.

Prisons - feck knows. Most people don't give a shit about prisoners, that's the terrible truth. Karen White was a terrible, terrible story for TRAs and it will be in their interests to lobby for serious risk assessments to stop that happening again. But electorally it doesn't make any sense for any government to make a song and dance about improving conditions for any prisoners, for any reason. Rory Stewart was the only prisons minister in memory to take a serious interest in prisoners' well-being and he isn't even in politics any more.

CharlieParley · 22/02/2022 12:09

@Manderleyagain

This is what I take her to mean:
  • ehrc should make clear to providers of (eg) women's services that they can restrict access on basis if sex (ie exclude trans women). That's lawful.
  • where providers choose to restrict access on basis of chosen gender instead (ie include trans women) they should be allowed to. The government has no plans to change this.

Both are lawful but are not the same.

The government obviously interprets EA as saying both are lawful, they have no plans to change that, and they support ehrc in making that clear.

But they are not both lawful.

Restricting by biological sex = lawful
Restricting by legal sex = lawful

Both of these options involve lawfully discriminating against people of the excluded sex, whether legal or biological.

Restricting by gender =/= lawful. It has no basis in law. As the judgement in For Women Scotland vs the Scottish Government reminds us, sex and gender reassignment are two distinct protected characteristics which cannot be lawfully conflated.

Any organisation that allows males access to a female-only provision on the basis of self-identification of sex is no longer using a lawful single-sex exception. The organisation is not including these males on the basis of their biological sex in a female-only provision, because they are not female. And it isn't including these males on the basis of their legal sex, because that's the whole point of self-identificstion of sex right now - these males remain legally male.

So how does the organisation justify exuding all other males from its provisions in law? It cannot and is therefore unlawfully discriminating against males who don't self-identify as trans.

There is one caveat to this in that the EHRC advises that those who are virtually indistinguishable from members of the opposite sex must be considered for inclusion in an opposite-sex provision regardless of whether they have a GRC.

This is difficult to apply in practice and is strongly debated by both sides in the debate - the provision relies on perception and perception is entirely subjective. Which is not a good or fair measure to decide access. We know for instance that women in general are much better at recognising sex than men. And hypervigilant women who have survived male violence will recognise fully transitioned males as male even if they otherwise may pass for most people. So that leads to obvious problems from a women's rights perspective.

And the mantra acceptance without exception is clearly in direct conflict with any kind of gatekeeping on the basis of appearance.

But even if according to EHRC advice organisations can legally operate a policy based on legal sex combined with allowing access to those who have fully transitioned, I cannot see a way of operating an exclusion policy on the basis of self-identification, which is what access based on gender amounts to.

Artichokeleaves · 22/02/2022 12:12

trans-inclusive services are not female-exclusive in the real world - because most women happily use them.

Most is not all.

Some females will be excluded. This merely makes it clear that good females will suck it up and silly females don't have a good reason not to, so it's ok they're left with no access so that males get to choose their favourite of all the options. There are MNetters without rape crisis services, without refuges, without access to Hampstead Ponds, yada yada yada. Yes trans inclusive actually in fact means female excluding.

The first job of a women's space or resource (and lets be honest, those women's spaces were created meaning female spaces) is to be 'inclusive' and accessible to all women. Not just the male ones and their allies who are privileged enough not to mind.

If you're ok with some people being excluded so long as it's just a few, then frankly the population of TW is much lower than the population of females who are impacted and excluded. If you believe that male people matter more than females do, then own it.

SamphiretheStickerist · 22/02/2022 12:13

Single sex or mixed sex is the only factual reality of this.

This! No matter how it is dressed up THIS is the truth of it. And we should stop being so wishy washy about it.

@PacificState women who want those services will have to advocate for them, fund them and go to court if necessary to justify them.

Yes. We will have to re-do the work of the last hundred years or so.

Alternatively we women, women's servcies, could just say FUCK OFF. Arrange for your own services. Which is what I take the first part of LTs letter to mean, The EA2010 fully supports, in law, the right of any organisation to maintain single sex provision, as per the guidelines.

I for one will be using her letter to mean just that!

OldCrone · 22/02/2022 12:13

I think essentially the women who want those services will have to advocate for them, fund them and go to court if necessary to justify them. I can't see any uk political party drafting legislation mandating single sex services by right.

So teenage girls have to 'advocate for' and go to court to 'justify' having single-sex toilets and changing rooms in school.

Female prisoners have to 'advocate for' and go to court to 'justify' having a women-only prison where they are not at risk of rape by other inmates.

Elderly and disabled women have to 'advocate for' and go to court to 'justify' their need for a same-sex carer.