TWAW men

[georgarina]

There are a lot of male public figures who are very vocal about their TWAW views and that they should have access to women's spaces and opportunities, and have mocked and bashed women like JK Rowling.

Does it not feel weird to them? Like if I, as a white person, were to publicly tell black people "Rachel Dolezal is black and deserves everything you've set up for your equality and protection. She is the victim. Get over it."

Or does it not even register that it might not be their place to comment?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

but we all live in society and get to take part in discussions about what is just and true, and in fact have a duty to do so

We do, but the views of people directly affected should always be centred in decisions which will have an impact on them. Including trans people. Not including random men with their overbearing righteousness who have zero direct stake. It's a case of not letting people with more power decide everything for marginalised groups, especially when they belong to a class of people who oppress them.

I agree with that, but that doesn't really sit with the idea that men should just shut up and not say anything.

If we're happy with men who are working on this issue in our favour it's important to treat men working on the other side in the same way.

Two other points - it's hardly just men that are on the other side of this. There are plenty of women and some are very much trans rights activists that are very involved, probably more so than regular guy next door men are. And women on here regularly ask why more men don't step up. And some of them say, we think this isn't our fight and we shouldn't stick our noses in, and they get told off.

It's important to listen to the people most involved for all of us, but I don't think we can have it both ways with men, accepting those who agree while telling those who don't they are out of order to have an opinion.

These men don't want Transwomen in their bathrooms. They don't want to have to defend TW from aggressive males.

If we're happy with men who are working on this issue in our favour

I said myself I was critical of them as well.

When it comes down to it, I want my feelings, consent and boundaries to be respected. I don't appreciate them being handwaved away, especially by men with no skin in the game, who don't understand how it is to navigate the world as a woman.

I think the behaviour towards women we are talking about here goes a bit further than just being pro trans rights.

@namitynamechange right? I lolled reading this whole thing. A sex congruent with their sexuality, then. Wonder if the penny is dropping yet for these people, as they seem absolutely perplexed 🤣.

And no one says trans women are women "in the same way" as cis women. No one said there's no differences whatsoever.

Then why not just say 'Transwomen are transwomen' and be proud of that?

It's just that trans women and cis women are both women, even if they're women in a different way.

By the way, the word/prefix 'cis' is considered a derogatory label and totally rejected by many people - women and men - who are assigned it without the basic common decency of ever being asked if they wish to be identified that way. I assume you somehow didn't know that and weren't being deliberately dismissive of other people's identities?

There's more than one way to be a woman.

Then surely there's more than one way to be a man as well? If we acknowledge that 'man' has been used in English since antiquity to refer to an adult biological male, using your own reasoning, why wouldn't being a transwoman be just another way of being a man?

Its interesting.

I remember a poster years and years back who argued with the whole board that TWAW for nearly the full 40 pages before it got to the topic of his sexuality and how we wouldn't sleep with a TW.

He knew the difference at that fundamental level; and I cant remember what exactly was said to make the scales fall from his eyes. But he realised he was being completely unreasonable to demand all women must view TWAW; but men dont have to see TWAW and yet can proclaim that they do.

We actually had a really good discussion for a while after off thread; he was quite embarrassed about the way he had behaved, and yet gracious enough to admit it.

I have no idea how they do these mental gymnastics but for a lot of the TWAW men; I genuinely think they cant see the cognitive dissonance.

Never forget Robin Green.