TWAW men

[georgarina]

There are a lot of male public figures who are very vocal about their TWAW views and that they should have access to women's spaces and opportunities, and have mocked and bashed women like JK Rowling.

Does it not feel weird to them? Like if I, as a white person, were to publicly tell black people "Rachel Dolezal is black and deserves everything you've set up for your equality and protection. She is the victim. Get over it."

Or does it not even register that it might not be their place to comment?

Yes, exactly

it's usually the woke, I-consider-myself-a-feminist men who support it. I genuinely don't think they consciously see it as men standing up for men

I’m sure it’s generally not conscious. As Flammkuchen says, I suspect they tell themselves these are women, and women that deserve proper sympathy as they disliked being men so much they would consider surgery or treatment to make themselves “less male”.

And as they’ve consciously made the decision that “decent men like them” should support women, and everyone says they are the most vulnerable women, they have their perfect scenario.

Much easier for men to empathize with a woman that’s properly like them, visibly and mentally,

Never forget the famous Twitter line " Transwomen are women except for relationship purposes".

There were several men at Standing for Women in Nottingham today, they led the TWAW chanting, took photos of the women attending, and the pushiest one told a CSA survivor she was 'playing the victim'.

Just looking at that online now. How very feminist and progressive these men are.

On Twitter I've always puzzled over how many retired and/or middle aged men say TWAW. Especially recently. I expect it from youngish beardy wokey blokeys but not the older ones. But now that posters have pointed out that some men don't like gender non-conforming men, it makes more sense.

@cordeliavorkosigan

I wonder if it's based on " well they are certainly radically different from me because I could never be or want to be feminine- appearing" and yes "not real men so therefore women" Maybe twaw is a form of transphobia actually :) Or at least phobia of gender nonconforming people.

This and the Aaronavitch quote. This pov had never occurred to me until I read those two posts. It makes a massive amount of sense.

@georgarina

“Exclusion and marginalisation of women is accepted under the umbrella of inclusivity”

It is not "exclusion and marginalization" to include trans women and not discriminate against them.

@Flammkuchen

David Aaronavitch explained it well. Most men are fond of their anatomy and find the idea of being female insulting. Therefore if a man wishes to cut off his penis and be called a woman, that is so outside their frame of reference, that it must be the most hellish thing imaginable, and they can't possibly be a man.

In this case, is it that most men who spout TWAW haven't caught up with the fact that a lot of self identifying TW with a social media presence seem to be those with AGP who still love their penis as much as ever? Are they still thinking of transsexuals?

@Christienne
“They just don’t think about it. Nor about how hypocritical they are, given that most of them would never have a sexual relationship with a TW.”

@Aderyn21
“Funny how they all know what a woman is when they want to have sex or have a baby”

@Nadjahomesoil
“I'd like to see these men sleep with/marry a TW.”

@Cheekypeach
“I’ll believe it when they date and sleep with them as they would a woman (if they’re straight of course). Why should we have to treat them as women in every way, but they don’t?”

@MingeofDeath
“Never forget the famous Twitter line "Transwomen are women except for relationship purposes".”

-

Do you think people only deserve rights if they're "fuckable"? That one should not support a marginalized group's rights unless willing to have sex with them?

Because that seems to be the premise here. You seem to think supporting a group's rights should be contigent on wanting to have sex with them.

Also, many straight guys who support trans rights do date trans women.

You seem to think supporting a group's rights should be contigent on wanting to have sex with them.

What has this to do with rights? It's about men who say TWAW who don't really believe it.

@OldCrone

You seem to think supporting a group's rights should be contigent on wanting to have sex with them.

What has this to do with rights? It's about men who say TWAW who don't really believe it.

How do they "not really believe it"?

Do you think "woman" must necessarily mean "woman I am sexually attracted to"?

How do they "not really believe it"?

Because I don't believe any of them actually believe these males are women in the same way that female people are. That's the point of "not relationship purposes", he's all TWAW when it doesn't affect him. Not so much when it does.

Also, many straight guys who support trans rights do date trans women.

That would make them gay as they are both males.

We're not talking about straight TWAW men rejecting individual MTF trans people. We're talking about them not considering any of them as sex partners (because they know fine well what a woman is) which is perfectly fine by me, but not TRAs, generally. I'm not a fan of hypocrisy though. I'm not a fan of woke men lecturing me on my perfectly natural boundaries around men being transphobic and then not following through themselves.

[quote ShinyShingles59]@Christienne
“They just don’t think about it. Nor about how hypocritical they are, given that most of them would never have a sexual relationship with a TW.”

@Aderyn21
“Funny how they all know what a woman is when they want to have sex or have a baby”

@Nadjahomesoil
“I'd like to see these men sleep with/marry a TW.”

@Cheekypeach
“I’ll believe it when they date and sleep with them as they would a woman (if they’re straight of course). Why should we have to treat them as women in every way, but they don’t?”

@MingeofDeath
“Never forget the famous Twitter line "Transwomen are women except for relationship purposes".”

-

Do you think people only deserve rights if they're "fuckable"? That one should not support a marginalized group's rights unless willing to have sex with them?

Because that seems to be the premise here. You seem to think supporting a group's rights should be contigent on wanting to have sex with them.

Also, many straight guys who support trans rights do date trans women.[/quote]
Everyone deserves rights. Not everyone is a woman. Nothing to do with being ‘fuckable’ and everything to do with these men holding a particular position… unless it directly affects them. Which it doesn’t. Because they’re men, and it’s not their rights being eroded. But women should just #bekind

I’m sure some men do date transwomen. Those men are bisexual or gay. Not all men screaming ‘transwomen are women’ are bisexual or gay. HTH.

That would make them gay as they are both males.

Or bisexual. But no, not straight.

Nothing to do with being ‘fuckable’ and everything to do with these men holding a particular position… unless it directly affects them. Which it doesn’t. Because they’re men, and it’s not their rights being eroded. But women should just #bekind

This.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

That would make them gay as they are both males.

Or bisexual. But no, not straight.

Yes, of course.

@Flammkuchen

David Aaronavitch explained it well. Most men are fond of their anatomy and find the idea of being female insulting. Therefore if a man wishes to cut off his penis and be called a woman, that is so outside their frame of reference, that it must be the most hellish thing imaginable, and they can't possibly be a man.

Many TW don't have that kind of surgery though . They remain intact but just csll themselves women.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

How do they "not really believe it"?

Because I don't believe any of them actually believe these males are women in the same way that female people are. That's the point of "not relationship purposes", he's all TWAW when it doesn't affect him. Not so much when it does.

Plenty trans-supportive men do date trans women, so your point is invalid.

And no one says trans women are women "in the same way" as cis women. No one said there's no differences whatsoever.

It's just that trans women and cis women are both women, even if they're women in a different way.

There's more than one way to be a woman.

And no one says trans women are women "in the same way" as cis women. No one said there's no differences whatsoever

That’s gaslightly as fuck.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

We're not talking about straight TWAW men rejecting individual MTF trans people. We're talking about them not considering any of them as sex partners (because they know fine well what a woman is) which is perfectly fine by me, but not TRAs, generally. I'm not a fan of hypocrisy though. I'm not a fan of woke men lecturing me on my perfectly natural boundaries around men being transphobic and then not following through themselves.

Completely ruling out any and all trans women simply by the virtue of being trans is somewhat transphobic alright, but it's also still less transphobic than engaging in militant anti-trans activism and actively campaigning for trans women's exclusion from public spaces.

And also, unless they have explicitly said that, you don't really have any way of knowing that besides making reaching assumptions. You are not a mind reader.

And no one says trans women are women "in the same way" as cis women. No one said there's no differences whatsoever.

So transwomen aren't women then, are they? Women are women because they are female. What makes transwomen women?

@Christienne

And no one says trans women are women "in the same way" as cis women. No one said there's no differences whatsoever

That’s gaslightly as fuck.

More like, you're deliberately misinterpreting.

Trans-supportive people do not define "woman" the same way you do. When trans-supportive people say "woman", they does not mean "cis females only", as you would.

I thought that much was clear.