TWAW men

[georgarina]

There are a lot of male public figures who are very vocal about their TWAW views and that they should have access to women's spaces and opportunities, and have mocked and bashed women like JK Rowling.

Does it not feel weird to them? Like if I, as a white person, were to publicly tell black people "Rachel Dolezal is black and deserves everything you've set up for your equality and protection. She is the victim. Get over it."

Or does it not even register that it might not be their place to comment?

And also, unless they have explicitly said that, you don't really have any way of knowing that besides making reaching assumptions. You are not a mind reader.

I'm happy to make an assumption.

*do not mean

That’s gaslightly as fuck.

Yep. Par for the course.

There's more than one way to be a woman.

There are plenty of ways to be a woman. Zero of them are being born male, because a woman is simply the name for an adult human female. No more, no less.

Trans-supportive people do not define "woman" the same way you do.

So, how do trans-supportive define women then? What makes TW women?

What are these males identifying with exactly, if woman has no meaning?

Completely ruling out any and all trans women simply by the virtue of being trans is somewhat transphobic alright,

So the man who said 'except for relationship purposes' is transphobic.

but it's also still less transphobic than engaging in militant anti-trans activism and actively campaigning for trans women's exclusion from public spaces.

Who is doing that?

And also, unless they have explicitly said that, you don't really have any way of knowing that besides making reaching assumptions. You are not a mind reader.

Plenty of them have said it explicitly. The people you quoted weren't making that up.

Could you answer, Shingles why TWAW men think they have the right to decide what a different group's boundaries and definition should be? One they are in a more privileged position to? Why it would be different to deciding the rights of other races or disabled people, as a white or able bodied person? That would be great.

Does it not feel weird to them? Like if I, as a white person, were to publicly tell black people "Rachel Dolezal is black and deserves everything you've set up for your equality and protection. She is the victim. Get over it."

Or does it not even register that it might not be their place to comment?

As in the OP.

[quote ShinyShingles59]@georgarina

“Exclusion and marginalisation of women is accepted under the umbrella of inclusivity”

It is not "exclusion and marginalization" to include trans women and not discriminate against them.[/quote]
It is if your inclusion excludes/marginalises others by default, as in the cases of allowing male people to compete in women's sports or be housed in women's prisons.

That's exactly my point, though. As in your post, you consider 'inclusion' only from the perspective of the male people who want access (when they could instead use male spaces or, in some instances, create their own spaces), and not from the much larger number of female people who will actually be excluded.

@ Shinyshingles

Most men would not have a sexual re.ationship with a transwoman though. IIRC at least 95% of men said no. I will try to provide a link to the survey.

@Helleofabore

I think they look at it as males standing up for males.

Oh… and a way to express their hate of females in an ‘inclusive way.’

You only have to look at the wonderful examples of the visitors that buzzed through late last week. They try to disguise it, but it is always there with that type of poster.

Fantastic and succinct post!

Most men would not have a sexual re.ationship with a transwoman though. IIRC at least 95% of men said no. I will try to provide a link to the survey.

They did, I think it was 98% of self identified straight men. I can link it if you don't have it. It was a pro-genderist survey, too.

Ooooh I think we’re looking at a full bingo card very quickly with this one…..

I’ve no doubt that predatory lesbians & weaponising infertile women will arrive very soon

Transwomen are transwomen. That’s it. There’s nothing wrong with it. Why don’t you celebrate being transwomen rather than trying to appropriate another group’s identities, rights and spaces. You’re deluded if you think otherwise. Unfortunately you’ve been supported in your delusion and that’s a shame. But that’s all that’s happened and it’s falling away now. We all need to move on.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If you dont mind posting that link. Thankyou in advance.

No problem.

https://www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating

Virtually all heterosexuals excluded trans folks from their dating pool: only 1.8% of straight women and 3.3% of straight men chose a trans person of either binary gender. But most non-heterosexuals weren’t down for dating a trans person either, with only 11.5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians being trans-inclusive in their dating preferences. Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) were most open to having a trans partner, but even among them, almost half (48%) did not select either ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman.’

*

Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation. For example, 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women and 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman, even though one wouldn’t expect either straight women or gay men to be attracted to women. Similarly, 50% of trans-inclusive straight men and 69% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they’d date a trans man, even though both groups are presumably only attracted to women. And 33% of the trans-inclusive bisexual/queer participants said they would only date a trans person of one gender but not the other, even though one may expect this group to be attracted to multiple genders.
Digging even deeper into the choices of cis folks willing to date trans people, an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women: 28% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks and 38% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they wouldn’t date a trans woman — only a trans man.

"cis females only"

Is it only me that finds that phrase deeply dehumanising? Makes me want to have a shower.

Also, to the original point, I think 5 minutes on the MN Black MNers board shows white people taking up space there too.

Suspect many of them are GAMPs. They're attracted to trans women but fiercely resist the idea that they are gay (hence the ubiquitous manly beards) and are consequently outraged that anyone could deny TWAW.

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GAMP

Also, to the original point, I think 5 minutes on the MN Black MNers board shows white people taking up space there too.

Yes, absolutely, but these progressive men we are discussing would be the first to criticise that, generally.

I don't know. If men are meant to be quiet about their views on this, that really implies they should be quiet in both directions, they should also not dispute gender ideology.

That would be quite the own goal on the part of women who dispute it, it's not like we've managed to get all women on side on this question.

In any case, I don't particularly believe in the kinds of politics that says that only the people of an identity group get to decide what is just in relation to that group. Not only is it unworkable and dangerous (who gets to speak for the gender lobby, then?) but we all live in society and get to take part in discussions about what is just and true, and in fact have a duty to do so. It's not like you will find any identity group that is all on one side of an issue anyway.

(from the quoted survey): Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation.

Is it that surprising though??? Is it really??

It's surprising to people who gaslight others about their sexuality.

@MangyInseam That is a good point. Outside of the specific issue of definitions - I think many men have a personal stake in this anyway if they have daughters/women in their lives they care about. Not because caring about the welfare of said women is the same as ownership (before I am scolded for that) but simply because (male or female) its normal and decent to want the people we care about to have safety and dignity.

but we all live in society and get to take part in discussions about what is just and true, and in fact have a duty to do so

We do, but the views of people directly affected should always be centred in decisions which will have an impact on them. Including trans people. Not including random men with their overbearing righteousness who have zero direct stake. It's a case of not letting people with more power decide everything for marginalised groups, especially when they belong to a class of people who oppress them.