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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

999 replies

Wombat2WombatCombat · 09/02/2022 21:50

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

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ScreamingMeMe · 11/02/2022 21:18

Can someone please explain to why "But some people have DSDs" argument has to do with people who are trans? They are two different classes of people. I don't get it.

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 21:20

@Sophoclesthefox

Let’s also not forget that the project to successfully implant a uterus into a human male, and use it to gestate a pregnancy involves a level of exploitative, dangerous, potentially disastrous experimentation on a human foetus that would make Mengele blush.

Women shouldn’t eat soft cheese or drink in pregnancy. But the sheer amount of medication, intervention, suppression, enhancement and tinkering with every single life sustaining system that would be needed to be done to have a baby be born from a MTF transsexual person would leave that sort of advice in the dust. It’s sociopathic to imagine subjecting a human foetus to that. I can’t conceive of a mind who would support such a thing.

Would you be against abortion on that basis as well then, or are differences between the two? If so, would you be willing to elaborate?
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littlbrowndog · 11/02/2022 21:21

I haven’t understood much of what wombat posts

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 21:22

Would you be against abortion on that basis as well then, or are differences between the two? If so, would you be willing to elaborate?

I think you need too be a great deal more clearer what you mean here.

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 21:22

@ScreamingMeMe

Can someone please explain to why "But some people have DSDs" argument has to do with people who are trans? They are two different classes of people. I don't get it.
The fact that DSDs exist could potentially be seen to undermine the notion that a defined and distinct sex binary exists. If such a thing does not exist, then trans people could not be accused of not being ‘real’ women or men, as there would be no viable biological criteria for ‘womanhood’ or ‘manhood’ for them to fail to fulfill
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Hasselhoffsheadband · 11/02/2022 21:23

@littlbrowndog

I haven’t understood much of what wombat posts
No me neither, I thought it was just me!
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/02/2022 21:24

Honestly, I genuinely can't wait for a uterus transplant to allow a trans woman to give bitth, just to cross that particular milestone and take the reproductive function argument away from you.

"It's every man's right have babies if he wants them!"

"But... You can't have babies!"

"Don't you oppress me!"

"I'm not oppressing you Stan. You've not got a womb! Where's the foetus going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?!"

In hindsight eerily accurate...

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 21:25

@Helleofabore

Would you be against abortion on that basis as well then, or are differences between the two? If so, would you be willing to elaborate?

I think you need too be a great deal more clearer what you mean here.

The basis on which Sophocles seems to object to the concept of a trans person giving birth is the potential damage it could do to to a foetus. Abortion would also do significant damage to a foetus - arguably more so, as the foetus would be guaranteed to be killed. Therefore, I was asking if they objected to abortion as well on that basis
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Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 21:26

No me neither, I thought it was just me!

I think we had a similar situation with a poster just yesterday. Same impenetrable posts.

Sophoclesthefox · 11/02/2022 21:26

Would you be against abortion on that basis as well then, or are differences between the two? If so, would you be willing to elaborate?

If you really don’t understand the difference between those two scenarios, I literally cannot help you.

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 21:26

The basis on which Sophocles seems to object to the concept of a trans person giving birth is the potential damage it could do to to a foetus. Abortion would also do significant damage to a foetus - arguably more so, as the foetus would be guaranteed to be killed. Therefore, I was asking if they objected to abortion as well on that basis

Do you understand how offensive your question is?

littlbrowndog · 11/02/2022 21:26

But then we are watching bbc4 broadcasting love songs from past top of pops

So perhaps not fully concentrating

Hasselhoffsheadband · 11/02/2022 21:26

The fact that DSDs exist could potentially be seen to undermine the notion that a defined and distinct sex binary exists. If such a thing does not exist, then trans people could not be accused of not being ‘real’ women or men

So you are admitting that the whole reason you are trying to undermine the categories of male and female is because you are pissy that most people don't believe a man can become woman, even if he wears a dress and make up and gold lame` handbag?

Great, well I'm glad that we cleared that one up in time for the end of the thread Smile

allmywhat · 11/02/2022 21:27

To say "I am a woman" is to identify as a woman, making "woman" your identity.

What a strange and reductive thing to say. I am a woman, and "woman" isn't my identity. I am a complete and multifaceted human being just like every other woman. Do you really not understand this? Women have more going on in our lives and minds than just being woman. "Woman" isn't an identity except from the perspective of a man who doesn't understand that women are human beings like himself.

littlbrowndog · 11/02/2022 21:28

Jeez that is so offensive

What a thing to write

.

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 21:28

@Hasselhoffsheadband

To say "I am a woman" is to identify as a woman, making "woman" your identity.

Could I say 'I am black' and therefore make 'black' my identity?

Even though it would be clear as day to anyone who met me immediately, and even more clear once I told them about my heritage, that I am categorically not black?

Gender is not race. When you say you identify as something, you are not changing any part of yourself except your gender identity. If you were to identify as black, you would be in an entirely different category to someone whose race was black
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Plasmodesmata · 11/02/2022 21:29

"Next time, I hope you will bear in mind that it is not always possible for users of this site to post a reply on demand for other users"

Wasn't that literally what the OP spent most of yesterday doing? Asking for replies to their questions?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 11/02/2022 21:30

*Apologies that real life circumstances meant I was unable to answer you question as immediately as you would have liked. Assuming that upon querying your gender identity, you replied ‘agender’ or whatever, then if prisons were to be segregated by gender, you would not be with a trans woman. At no point did I state what prisons would be segregated by - I was instead saying that it would be something alternative to the male/female sex binary as, given is this hypothetical scenario occurs under circumstances where a male/female sex divide is unviable, such a distinction would be impossible.

Instead segregation (assuming it even occurs) would be done by other factors - these could be biological, psychological, legal or anything else. Such a decision would be based on analysis I have not done that takes into account prisoner safety, well-being, cost effectiveness, practicalities of distinction, and many other categories. Your assumption that you would share a cell with a trans woman is in no way guaranteed by any of this - nowhere did I state this. The only thing I can be certain of is that if this scenario occurs under circumstances where the male/female sex divide is impossible, then by nature, segregation cannot be done using the male/female sex divide - biological traits, psychology and everything else would still play a part in the decision.

Next time, I hope you will bear in mind that it is not always possible for users of this site to post a reply on demand for other users*

Thank you for engaging again wombat. There are so many posters on these sites who drop their 'wisdom' then refuse to engage in sensible debate. I'm sure you can forgive me for mistakenly thinking you might be one of them.

I do need you to be way more specific though as this is not really an answer. At the moment we have a 2 prison system which house men and women respectively. Most people think transwomen, by virtue of being males, should not be in the women's prisons.

You are suggesting that we do away with the definitions of men and women but keep sex segregated space. So I need you to say, clearly and simply, how do you propose to segregate spaces?

You suggest by gender but there are over 100 genders (we are told) and these boxes are growing. So do you want as many prisons as boxes or do you want to group some boxes together? if so, which? and why?

If you are relying on the analysis I have not done that takes into account prisoner safety, well-being, cost effectiveness, practicalities of distinction, and many other categories. then tell me more about that? Who do you think should be responsible for such an analysis? Because, you see, I think the analysis should be based on asking women 'do you want transwomen in your spaces?'. That, after all, is how we are going to know what secures women's wellbeing. Thing is, that has already be done and women have said 'no'. Why do you think we need more analysis?

Regardless of the fact that you appear to be suggesting an unworkable categorisation can you answer a very simple question - why do we need people to be segregated according to identity, psychological or legal factors? We have a clear argument for segregation according to biological sex. I think it is only fair to give space for you to share your argument for segregation according to other factors.

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 21:31

If you were to identify as black, you would be in an entirely different category to someone whose race was black

Why? Please explain this statement.

Hasselhoffsheadband · 11/02/2022 21:33

Gender is not race. When you say you identify as something, you are not changing any part of yourself except your gender identity. If you were to identify as black, you would be in an entirely different category to someone whose race was black

How are they different? They both involve identifying as something you are not.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 11/02/2022 21:34

Gender is not race. When you say you identify as something, you are not changing any part of yourself except your gender identity. If you were to identify as black, you would be in an entirely different category to someone whose race was black

Yes so when you say 'I feel like a woman' or 'I am a woman' you don't make it so and you are not changing your biological sex. So men should not be in female spaces.

I thought you were arguing the opposite but you seem to be in agreement here?

Woman is not a gender identity.

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 21:34

@Hasselhoffsheadband

The fact that DSDs exist could potentially be seen to undermine the notion that a defined and distinct sex binary exists. If such a thing does not exist, then trans people could not be accused of not being ‘real’ women or men

So you are admitting that the whole reason you are trying to undermine the categories of male and female is because you are pissy that most people don't believe a man can become woman, even if he wears a dress and make up and gold lame` handbag?

Great, well I'm glad that we cleared that one up in time for the end of the thread Smile

That is not the reason I started the thread. The reason I started the thread was because I wished to learn what the biological definition of a man or woman was. Upon learning it was possible there may not be one, I made the relevant connections to note that this would undermine any attempts at determining ‘true womanhood’ on the basis of sex. The poster wished to know how it would, so I explained. Like I said, I am entirely open to either argument, and unless you consider the very fact of interrogating a sex binary to be evidence of motive to deliberately remove it, I have not been ‘trying to undermine’ it
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RVN123 · 11/02/2022 21:35

Oh Ok.

Because abortion actually KILLS a foetus, we can shove all manner of untested and sometimes unregulated drugs into their body, because, well at least we're not KILLING them, right?
We can use them as test subjects to prove a point.
Lets then stuff them full of some kind of artificially induced hormone laden "milk" with unproven nutritional value in order to feel validated.

But we're not KILLING them so it must be okay.

BTW uterus transplants are a science fiction fantasy that some people use to delude vulnerable people that you can ever change sex in any meaningful way.
And they are NEVER about the baby.
Never.
They are about the validation of individuals using the child for their own ends.

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 21:38

Upon learning it was possible there may not be one

You have been given definitions. Are you saying that biological and medical text books are not up to your satisfaction?

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 21:40

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Gender is not race. When you say you identify as something, you are not changing any part of yourself except your gender identity. If you were to identify as black, you would be in an entirely different category to someone whose race was black

Yes so when you say 'I feel like a woman' or 'I am a woman' you don't make it so and you are not changing your biological sex. So men should not be in female spaces.

I thought you were arguing the opposite but you seem to be in agreement here?

Woman is not a gender identity.

When you say ‘I am a woman’, you are altering your gender identity to that of a woman, but are not changing your sex. However, for you to argue that such a person is therefore not a woman in the biological sense, there would have to be a cast iron definition of what constitutes biological ‘womanhood’. Anything can be a gender identity, that’s how gender works. To say that you do not believe in gender is to say that you do not believe in ‘opinions’, or ‘thought’, or any other abstract psychological concept. It does not cease to exist simply because you do not refer to it as such
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